We are joined by Wendy Harbutt from Dramatic Improvement, who specialises in leadership and management coaching.
You’ll hear:
– How role play is a powerful learning tool
– Ensure you build relationships for your next step
– Stop reading and start putting things into place
– Try to catch people doing things well and talk about it
We are delighted that Wendy will be back in the next episode to enlighten us with more top tip leadership skills.
About Symco Training:
Symco Training was founded in 2000 by Simon Bowkett and it was his belief that the business had to offer its clients something different. That difference was clear to Simon from his days in the dealership when he experienced many sales trainers who had all the answers, but were unable, unwilling or both to actually show the delegate how they could be implemented. It remains the ethos of the business today. You see, Symco only employ trainers that are committed to delivering not only in spiring and insightful training, but are equally as happy to demonstrate these skills and techniques with real customers in your own showroom. We believe in order for sales training to be effective and in Simon’s words ‘real world’, it needs to be tried and tested in the only place it matters the showroom floor. There is no room for theory when your goals are for your team to sell more cars, hours or parts and retain more profit. In dealerships around the world the focus applied by many of the sales executives is to try and sell a deal. Symco specialise in getting your teams to focus on selling themselves, the product and then supporting this with the deal.
To find out more visit: www.symcotraining.co.uk
Time, welcome to the Selling and the Motor Trade podcast in Association of Car Without. The online car-changing destination. Together we share tips and ideas on how to sell more cars, improve your service department, and generally put more profit into your department, dealership or dealer group. I'm your host, Simon Bowkett, or some of you might already know me as Skippy. First thing, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to listen to this podcast. Hi, welcome to another episode of Selling and the Motor Trade. Today I'm joined with Wendy Harbitt, and this is going to be a little bit different. I come across Wendy when we actually interviewed someone else on the podcast, and we always like to ask about how did you improve your business, how you had any development, and I'm going to say Chris was absolutely raving about Wendy Harbitt from Dramatic Improvements and Development.
So Wendy, I just had to get you on the podcast. Welcome aboard. Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here. So can you tell us about people who might not know you? Can you tell us about how did you first get into the world of leadership and development and coaching? What were your early experiences to get you into this path? Yeah, well, I started, I grew up in my parents' business, so I feel like that's ingrained. And then I've had a career of two halves. So the first half was in marketing. I ran my own marketing business eventually, and then from there, I completely switched lanes and went into learning and development, and went back to university, and today I would describe myself as a business psychologist, and facilitator, and executive coach.
So that's what I do. I work with people, and it's all about how they can be a better version of them. Now, typically I work with leaders. I also work a bit on team effectiveness. So if you've got a group of people that are individually brilliant, but somehow that isn't quite singing together, I often get brought in for those kinds of things. And yeah, I do a mixture of kind of creating programs to develop people, but also working one-to-one as a coach. And I work in the industry as a coach. Yeah. So, why changing gears from marketing business into the learning and development space? What was the motivation for that? I kind of think we all get one go at this, and there came a point in my life where I realized that whilst I was successful at it, it really didn't make me feel fulfilled.
And I didn't love it anymore, and I do love what I do now. So it was a big decision. You know, when something's going well, it takes some bravery to break it. But that is indeed what I did. I took a big hammer to my life and built a different one. And I'm glad I did. I'm really glad of it. So that's back in 2009. And I'll go ask the name in that dramatic improvement. It kind of hints at one of your methods there. And I know we spoke before. You incorporate lots of drama and role play exercises in the training. Can I just ask you a little bit about that? Because I know some people might be skeptical about role play on coming on a training course with role play.
Can you talk to us a little bit about why you find that technique so powerful for learning and can give some examples of how you involve that new learning and development? Hey, let's be honest, people hate it, don't they? Me too. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, I say, yeah, so we're going to be doing some role play. And I watch all the faces in the room. Yeah. Oh, no. Oh, no. I hate it. I hate pretending people will say. So I guess I guess that bad role play, if that's been your experience, then then get better people to work. Because if it's done well, you should forget that this is anything other than happening for real.
So that's what we try to do. And look, if you're going to try and learn something practically skill based, behavioral, any of that stuff, yeah, if you said, okay, so I'm going to try being better at coaching other people. I'd say brilliant. How are you going to do that? And you would talk me through it and I'd go, yeah, great. Now show me you can do it. And that's the bit, right? So you have to have a kind of safe place to experiment with that and play and try it and go again. And I often describe my colleagues, the actors as crash test dummies, because you won't break them. You have a practice run, you give something to go.
It goes how it goes, and then you go again, right? You take some feedback and you go again. And you can do that in real life, but it's a bit more scary, I think, practicing out there in the wild. But hey, that's my kind of belief about it. Yeah, I love that Grant Clowdon told me years ago to get anyone to do anything. It's tell me first, then show me, okay, then let me and then coach me. And too often, I think in training development, it's just the tell me, okay, there's not the show me side of it. Then there's not the let me or the let me with real customers or real employees and real conflict management.
And then the coachman should be after they've actually done it. So I love the idea of that. You're not just telling people what to do. Yeah. And actually showing them when you're in your real world, when your day to day, if you want to try something new, people will push you back. Yeah, because nobody really wants to change. If you want to change, it implies that others around you have got to change. So if I want to try being better at something, all my colleagues around me have to be patient with me while I try to do that thing. All right. And they will say stuff to me like, why are you doing that? You're being weird.
And it will hate yet. Or have you been on a training course? And so it's designed to kind of put us off and push us back into our box, push us back into our lane so that we stay the same and they can stay the same. And that's a real blocker to development. So I would encourage people to tell others around them. So if you have been on a training course and you want to actually get it to be useful, come back and say stuff like, I've been on a training course, I've learned this thing, I want to try it out. Can you give me a bit of encouragement and support to do this? And those people say, yes, they might, they might, you know, raise a cynical eyebrow or have a bit of a laugh.
But it makes it more possible. You're kind of creating your own permission to have a go. That's, that's kind of what I think. But yeah, you know, going back to the actor thing. Yeah, if you get super skilled actors, it shouldn't feel like a protecler. Well, I think that's what people say all the time. Well, please never real. And we say sometimes that, you know, it's, it's, well, sounds people always say, with real customers, so much easier, it's so much easier. And I say, well, yeah, that is true. Because a real customer won't tell you when you got it wrong. A real customer is not going to say, stop, timeout. Actually, you shouldn't have said that, should you?
Because I'm going to react this way. And that's why it never feels real sometimes. Because of course, we know when you haven't got it right. And of course, your actor, the facilitator will know when they haven't got it right. I suppose that's the different things with roleplay as well, isn't it? Yeah. If someone throws that, it's never real scenario up there. Oh, it's a bit cheesy. But I've heard a few people say this is real play. And look, I think you can only wave that banner if you really are good at it. But yeah, I do work with people that I'm glad to say, I'll really, really superb at it. So yeah, I love that phrase real play.
It really sums up what it is. So this is a shameless plug to our first 90 day program. So when did we say that the skills that people learn in the first 90 days, good and bad, often last with them for the rest of their career? And that's why we say who's training our service advisors, our people start with. So can I ask you, in the start of your career, is there anything you learned in your first three months that's as relevant to date as it is when you started in your career? Yeah, I think, I think the thing I worked out really early in my career is that it's all about people, and it's all about relationships.
So yesterday, I was talking to a group of very, very senior executives in a very large organization. And I was saying pretty much the same thing to them. Your progression is going to be based on your success, frankly, and what you do is going to be based on your ability to build relationships and make them last. I heard you and Chris, I think you were talking about this notion of salespeople moving around, and you were saying, look, it's much better to stay somewhere. And I, at the time, I was thinking, yeah, like, farm those relationships. Don't go hunting for more. Well, do go hunting for more. But stay and work with those relationships. Look, it absolutely is about people.
And if anyone's listening to this and thinking, yeah, I know that, I'd say, okay, have you really thought about the relationships you need to have and develop for whatever your next step is? So wherever you want to go next, have you already built those relationships and do those people know about you? So in terms of career development, let's say, so if you're, if you're somebody wanting to step into management, or if you're somebody in management wanting to step up to the next level, I would argue that a lot of that is going to be based on whether the people that can put you there know that you want to be there, and know why you should be put there, right, into that role.
And that's about those relationships. So yeah, but I think, I think that's what I learned early. And the other thing is find out what makes your your key stakeholders tick, really get into what it is that works for them. I have this thing that I say, which is people do things for their own reasons. So if I want to influence anybody to do anything, I can work out why I want them to do it. That's super simple. But I think a key question is why would they want to do it? And if you're thinking, well, I don't know, I don't know why they want to do it. Well, you need to do a bit more work then on that relationship.
But starting with why Simon Sennick isn't it? But not just for you as the leader, the actual person. So simple, isn't it? But so often, you just don't see that happening to you. I just need to do this for our dealership, our benefit, our department, not the person doing it. Yeah. And by the way, you mentioned Simon Sennick. So I'll I'll riff off the back of that and say, there's something that I'm not I'm not a disciple, but you know, he does say quite a lot of good stuff, new sort of stuff. And he talks about a leader's duty being to create the conditions, a duty to create the conditions in which other people can be successful.
So if there's anyone listening to this that is in a leadership role, or or even isn't in the leadership role, but is a natural leader, then I would say, are you doing enough to create the conditions for those around you to be successful and and start with you? Like look in the mirror, start and think, what is it I'm doing that's creating the reactions around me? Yeah, I want to ask even coaches, benefit from coaching. So can I ask you other than Simon, who else are some of your biggest influences or mentors in your journey? And maybe not books or people that we've read, but maybe mentors that you had starting on your journey on learning and development?
I feel like the people that have influenced me most, I guess others might relate to this, the people that have influenced me most are the people that showed me how not to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's so funny. I don't know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, I feel I feel like I've learned more from observing others do stuff I don't want to repeat. And then I've tried to shape myself into the space between, I guess. Look, I've got a big bookcase behind me full of full of wise words. And so yes, there are definitely people I love to read. Brené Brown is somebody I would go to. I'd go to Ted Talks and have a look at those.
There's endless sources out there, but I think Chris Cormier and name check to Chris who got me to hear onto this call. He would say, stop reading. He said, Wendy says stop reading. I don't know that I say stop reading. I'd say, make sure you're applying. So do look for those influences, but do get into, yeah, and how do I actually use them day to day? Isn't it so true, stop reading and start putting it in place? That's what you need to do because it's, I know myself, maybe you do this as well. My bookcase, I'm looking down at it's full as well. And we do this stuff in podcasts, I absorb all this information all the time.
And I think it's really, really good. But is there almost like, I don't know, psychological point, paralyzed by analyzing? And it's too many different ways to look at things there. I love that idea of stop reading and start putting into a place. Some of the stuff you need to do. Yeah. I think stuff's got to be pretty, well, for me, stuff's got to be pretty simple. Because whilst I'm in my busy day, I have to be able to hold the concept in my head and use it in the heat of the moment. So if somebody says, here's my 10 steps to success, I'd say, wow, well, that's about nine too many for me. Right? Give me, give me one thing I can go do and give it a try.
And then, and here's a key point, and then reflect. So anyone that's worked with me, well, no, I talk about this. Most people say they reflect and they don't. What they actually do is criticize themselves. They give themselves a good kicking. They're driving home at the end of the day and they go, Oh, I didn't do that well, or I didn't get that right. So they're very self, most most people talk about like this kind of, we all do that. I think we do that. Aren't we our biggest critics? We are our biggest critics often. And I would encourage a ratio for reflection of three things you've done well. And then if you can come up with that, then you're allowed to have the last one, which is one thing you do differently.
And that's not one thing you did badly. It's one thing you would do differently if when you next get the chance. So, and that's putting your experience learning from your experience into practice. So yeah, you can you can go feed your brain with material with books and learning and do I have it's it's interesting. But I would really say learn from yourself as much as anyone else. Can I just look back then? And because that's also the bad managers that we've learned from. So many times they'll listen to a sales call or a service or dealing with employee or interviewing someone. And the person doing the coaching was just like, well, you didn't do this.
You haven't got that. You haven't got this. And everything they've done wrong, wrong, wrong all the time. And they don't realize hold on the person themselves and beat themselves up. They don't need you to jump in there. And it's I want to get your views on a simple coaching framework. And if we're on the right track, we were talking our trainers and coaches to say, listen, number one, Mr. and Mrs. Salesperson, service advisor, manager, how did you think that went? Number one. Yeah. Okay. So see if they have some awareness of what they did. Number two, say, okay. So if you had your time again, what would you do differently? Yeah. Okay. And then okay.
So next time in that scenario, what are you going to do? Lots of then. And then we'd say, hey, do you mind if I tell you how I would have approached it? And I think it's important to ask permission say, hey, listen, do you mind if I tell you how I would have done that? Now everyone says yes, but they're now open to how they can improve that. Are we on the right path with that to get the best on coaching someone? Well, the first thing is I'm very glad that it's set of questions rather than telling them because it doesn't normally happen. It's tell, tell, tell. So look, we're trying to get them. We're trying to help them.
We're trying to create conditions in which they can get better at the thing. Yeah. So we have to ask questions that get them to figure that out. And then what they're going to do differently. I'm going to go back to your first question. How do you think that went now? I reckon that quite a fair few people will instantly jump to what went not so well. Yeah. So you're again, human nature. But yeah, well, then you're starting them off in this kind of negative space. So if I could change something, I'd change your first question to point out to me the things that you did well there. Talk me through the bits you liked, the bits you do again, because it's reinforcing.
It's getting them to build up their own confidence and belief in the stuff they do well. And PS, we want them to repeat that stuff, right? We don't want to just walk past that and take that stuff for granted. We want to get them to think about. So anyone listening right now, you can do this. You can do this for yourself. Like, just check yourself. What have you done well today? What things do you think? Yeah, I give myself a little credit for that. I give myself a pat on the back. Because you need to keep doing those things. That's arguably as important as being able to identify the thing to work on, right? But people walk past that.
So yeah, so yeah, coming back to your questions. Yeah, I like the fact that they're questions. And I don't know if you need the last one, which is the point about, can I can I tell you how I do it? Well, maybe you do, but then that's not coaching that's training. So let's say, yes, you can't work this bit out for yourself. You don't know this piece. Let me talk you through it. That is true, because at some point we do have to train them to say, hey, this is the way to do it. And so going straight into know you've got all that wrong to do it this way. And I also love the, I can't remember who you'll tell me who it was, but I love the idea of the scenario of, well, you've got a niece or nephew.
That's three or four years old. They drove you a picture of something. They can't say, Uncle Simon, Auntie Winder. I drew you a picture. And of course we say, as uncles and aunties, wow, that's brilliant. What is it? It's a boat. It's a boat. Okay. Of course it's a boat. I can see it now. It's the best boat in the world. Now, of course, we're going to see pictures of boats all afternoon. And for their mom and dad says, Auntie Winder, she's seen enough boats. Okay. But if you turn around and say, what is it? It's a boat. Really? That's a boat. Are you serious? How old are you? You're four. And that's the level of boats you're drawing now.
I tell you what, when I was your age, I was drawing better boats than that. I mean, the difference between those two things and just praising that boat that, listen, it might not be the best boat in the world. But it's like, wow, that's really good. That's where they get them to do more and more. And I think lots of managers, they just go, this is wrong. That's wrong. This is wrong. So I love where you said three things right. And someone told me years ago, it's like the tardas. Have a look at that. You've done really well. I love that approach. Yeah. I was working one to one with a head of business quite a few years ago.
And we were talking about this notion of how you get people to be better at a thing. And they said, the trouble is, Wendy, lots of them just don't do enough good stuff. You can imagine my enthusiasm for this. And I said, well, come with me then. We're going to get out of this office, PS, get out your office regularly. And we're going to go to where people are doing the job. And let's go just hover about there for a bit. They'll, initially, they'll notice with that. And then quite soon we'll become invisible and they'll carry on doing what they do. Just see how long it takes for you to see them do something good that you can then go give them some positive feedback about.
Almost go catch people doing things. Well, that's the phrase, isn't it? Catch people get things well. And then talk about that. And look, lots of people give praise. So praise is non-specific, as you know, it's like, great job, Simon. Nice one. All that kind of stuff. Yeah. That's not what people want, though, is it? Well, it has the kind of lasting effect of light. I say it's like confetti or snowflakes. It's pretty, but it doesn't last very long. If you can really give feedback, that's much more powerful. So if I can tell you what you did that was and why it had such a good effect, you're highly likely to do it again. So if I want you to do more of the good stuff, that's a short room.
Yeah. So true. And also, if you just say, well done and praise the person, it might have that snowflake from that person. But everyone else is like passing the sick bag. Okay, what are they doing there? Well, if you turn around and say, hey, Jenny, listen, the way you made that appointment there, that was sensational. That's where everyone hears, ah, it's not Jenny sensational. It's the way she made that appointment. It's praise the actual act, isn't it? Not the person. And by the way, I think is that the phrase? Yeah, yeah. Well, praise the effort is the I also think you can lead people, you can help people do that for themselves. So you know that reflection that I described, you can get people, you can lead people to do that.
So you can, for example, say, Hey, Jenny, I observed you doing some of those check-ins this morning, just talk me through what three things do you think made a good positive difference in the way you tackled those this morning? And see if she can pick it up. Because yes, you want to give feedback and as well as that, sometimes it's good to get people to be able to identify that for themselves. Okay, can I go back to the man, the head of business that trouble is none of my people do anything right? Okay, I just want to know how that ended up. Did it dawn on him? What was the change in that business after that?
Sorry. Well, they were surprised to learn that it didn't take very long of standing there to find that a lot of people were doing a lot of things right. And it's almost like they had a black hat, if you know, six thinking hats, I'm a fan of that, but they had this kind of these these kind of dark lenses on their eyes where they could only see the wrong stuff and it bothered them and it ate them, you know, it really got under their skin. And I just took the glasses off and gave them some different lenses to look through. And it doesn't mean the world's all perfect. So if anyone's listening to this and thinking, yeah, but join me in the real world, trust me, I'm in it.
I'm just saying, make sure that you're fanning the positive flames, as well as pointing to the bits that need to be different. So yeah, the last thing effect was that that person I finally got into a good routine with feedback and they then had the power to spread that culture across the business. So yeah, look, I think it was a good outcome in the end, but it was an interesting process getting there. I want to get your views on, we just work in the motor trade and I started washing cars when I was 17. And that's that's all I know the motor trade. So I'm curious to get your views on working in other industries, because I know you work with the clients like BMW, Jardin Motors, but also lots in banking and finance and so many other industries there.
Are we different in the motor trade? Now, I know a lot of people say, Hi, our industry is different. This is the airline industry. It's different to selling cars, different to banking. But what I mean by that is, it seems to me sometimes in the motor trade, the management style is leave him alone, leave him alone, zap, you got that wrong, leave him alone, leave him alone, zap, you got this wrong. And in fact, sometimes I say to a manager, hey, you could hit your job invariably. So yes, but then I asked a hard question. How do you know? And all too often as well, it's been a while since I've been given a ballicking.
Now, maybe I say that half sarcastically, but are we different in the motor trade or are people just people, Wendy? Look, people are just people. You are, yes, the motor trade, I would say, has its own distinct flavor because it has a lot of people. I would call it like the cool kids at school, like lots of people didn't necessarily do academically brilliant at school, or brilliantly at school, but they then had enough about them. They had enough personal quality to be very successful. And those are a lot of the people I see in the industry. And so there were... I'm one of the... Yeah, I'm exactly that. So I'll start. Yeah, yeah, people that have just got a bit about them and they're ready to work hard and try hard and learn it by doing it.
So I have a lot of respect for the motor industry. Yes, I think it does have some legacy culture and I'm generalizing, so forgive me, but it does tend to have some legacy culture of people that say things like, well, it didn't do me any harm, so I'm doing it to them. Very... What we call that kind of old school mentality. I think that's changing. I'm glad to say it's changing. I hope so. I definitely... The leaders I've worked with, for example, with BMW, there's a program there called Aspire, which is for people that are senior managers that are aspiring to be heads of business. And so, yeah, they definitely were trying to change the style, trying to change the way that we lead, because the people coming into the industry now aren't the same.
They're looking for different things. They've been educated at a different time to us in different ways. So we have to be ready to manage and lead them differently. In fact, one of the things I often hear is, oh, I can't get... I can't motivate them. I can't get them to do anything because they're not like me. It's like, yeah, that's true. They're not. So what are you going to do about that? What are you going to try? People do things for their own reasons. What are their reasons for doing this thing? Might be different to yours. So I get so passionate about the Motor Trade, because this is all I know, but when we get not from the outside, it's so often people that just still think we're the Arthur Daily Image.
It's often people from other industries in what event. It's like, we're not like that at all. I mean, the Motor Trade, we produce some great leaders there. And also the complexities of a modern car dealership. I mean, there's six businesses in one business. And some of those operators that you and I have worked with, they're just real young leaders there. And I get very passionate when we get still branded with that Arthur Daily Image. I mean, that went out a long time ago. That's a great time ago. It's not true. And yeah, I think they are sometimes very tough environments to work in. So I agree. I think there are just a huge number of fantastic leaders in the industry, for sure.
Lots of humility, because that growing up through the ranks does create a humility. And I think that's a great quality, sometimes overdone, but usually a great quality. How do you mean sometimes overdone on the humility? Overdone on anything. So that's this idea you may have heard it before. I don't know if anyone's talked about it on the podcast before, but this idea that our strengths, when overdone, become our problems. Yeah. So if somebody's confident, that would be a great strength to have. But if they're overconfident, that's not so great. Right. If somebody's got humility, that's a very admirable quality. We like it. We're drawn to it as humans. We like that. But if I have too much humility, I become a bit over carpet.
Right. So that's how you keep something because of strength and you don't tip it over into an overdone strength. And again, this is something anyone listening could just check themselves on. What are your strengths? Just think through what you imagine your key strengths are. And then just think about, if you turn those a bit like turning the volume up on this podcast, if you turn the volume up too high, it won't sound so great. So what happens when you turn your strengths up too high? Perhaps, you know, lots of people in this industry talk about being driven. Most people are pretty driven. You know, they've got a lot about them, a lot of self motivation, particularly if they get into management and leadership positions.
But again, if I turn my drive up too much, and I have, so I'll tell you, in early in my career, I was a terrible, horrible, awful manager because I'm so driven, I get stuff done. Right. But if I do too much of that, guess what? People around me start to fall over and break. So it's this style of leadership called pace setting. And I do think there's probably a bit too much pace setting going on in the commercial part of the automotive industry. Because we promote people that are good at the thing. So who's the sales manager? They were probably the best sales exec at some point, right? So we promote them because they're best at the thing, the task.
And then we end up with managers that are impatient with those around them that are less good at the same. Yeah. So, so true. So it's watching out that our strength don't, so if I'm driven, great. If I'm too driven, not great. Yeah. So. That just leads me to say that all details of this episode and other episodes on the selling in the motor trade can be found on our website simcotraining.co.uk. Go there to get a copy of our book Words That Sell Cars. Go there to sign up to a free trial of our sales fitness online sales training program. Easiest way to get hold of me is Simon Bowkett through LinkedIn. Thank you.
