Mentors Matter

In this episode we are joined by Ashley Wiltshire, a fellow training consultant and great advocate of the motor trade.

We discuss how Ashley got started in the trade, his career progression and the importance of training in the agency model.

He is also a firm believer in leadership development programmes, and their role in helping you hold on to your top talent.

Here are the highlights:

{09:02} F & I background

{15:14} Starting a business

{28:28} Training for agency

{31:05} Role of the Business Manager

{41:05} Trainers

{46:43} Mentors

About Symco Training:

Symco Training was founded in 2000 by Simon Bowkett and it was his belief that the business had to offer its clients something different. That difference was clear to Simon from his days in the dealership when he experienced many sales trainers who had all the answers, but were unable, unwilling or both to actually show the delegate how they could be implemented. It remains the ethos of the business today. You see, Symco only employ trainers that are committed to delivering not only in spiring and insightful training, but are equally as happy to demonstrate these skills and techniques with real customers in your own showroom. We believe in order for sales training to be effective and in Simon’s words ‘real world’, it needs to be tried and tested in the only place it matters the showroom floor. There is no room for theory when your goals are for your team to sell more cars, hours or parts and retain more profit. In dealerships around the world the focus applied by many of the sales executives is to try and sell a deal. Symco specialise in getting your teams to focus on selling themselves, the product and then supporting this with the deal.

To find out more visit

www.symcotraining.co.uk

Welcome to the Selling and the Motor Trade Podcast, an association with Symco Training. This is the weekly podcast where we share best practice tips and ideas on how to sell more cars, improve your service department and generally put more profit into your dealership or dealer group. I'm your host, Simon Bowkett. As some of you probably already know me as Skippy, I will start by saying thank you for taking the time to listen to this podcast. Hi and welcome to another episode of Selling and the Motor Trade. Today I'm joined by Ashley Wiltshire and I love these ones because I'm speaking to another trainer and it always fascinates me why someone like you and I actually do what we do, okay, and what we put ourselves through and all of that. And I'm always keen to find out how people do things differently to what we do. So Ashley, welcome along to the podcast. Thank you, Simon. Great to see you and looking forward to our chat this morning. Well listen, we need to start off by saying tell me, how did you start in the motor trade? Let's go right back to a young Ashley. Tell us about your journey to the motor trade. Right, Keith. Simon, I was hoping you wouldn't ask me to date that but look, I'm a huge fan of the huge ambassador for the motor trade and the reason being after education, I needed a job and I literally walked into a dealership in a house called Dunforshore which I'm sure some of the more mature people who enjoy your podcast will remember that business. And I asked the dealer principal for a job, you know, the classic, the money jobs go in this stuff. And I was very fortunate as a manager, as a dealer principal as he was, he gave me a job in the past department, Simon. So there you go. I started off picking parts for things like Austin Allegros and Morris marinas and Metros and some of those products that will take people back down memory lane back in the late 80s. For the late 80s. Well, that was an Alesbury, did you say? Correct. Yeah, Alesbury, Buckinghamshire. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I first come over in 95 from Australia, I was based in High Wickham. So not too far from there at all. And yeah, it was Evans Lawshire I started working, but the original Evans Lawshire, not Winpen Dragon took him over there. So I kind of know that area quite well then. We've shadowed each other how our whole career is. I mean, there you go. It's something like that. Yeah, it's like. So you started in the parts department. So from parts then into the sell side of it. Yeah, absolutely. I won't forget my first my first week in parts. I loved it. And there was this really mature gentleman in the parts department. It was the classic brown coats in parts and kind of depends in the top pocket. I got it. He said to me, he said, I'll tell you what, young man, he said, I'll say what they used to be. And that's when I thought, Oh, well, I wonder what they used to be like. And that's where I got my first glimpse of, you know, attitude is the destiny that takes you anywhere. So true, even back then parts are not what it used to be. This place is changing. It's quite funny. I can remember in towns or North Queensland, even back then I had that negative old sales person saying, Oh, we'll be at will be a thing in the past soon. They won't be needing us. And that was 33 years ago. And the other thing I want to pick up on that, this has happened enough. You just walked into a dealership. I've got to say, I don't know if I see enough of that anymore. People that will shoot on walking the dealership knock on the doors and say, Hey, I want to speak to the manager there. I think it tells you something about your attitude, warning a job, not just does it happen enough nowadays? I'm not sure if it does. I would echo that with technology jobs online, these wonderful platforms that we have available to us has taken some of that, you know, boots on the floor activity away. But if I was a hiring manager, I'd be delighted if someone took that gun from walked in. So maybe we should be talking more about that at some point in the future. I think so. I think so. So this always separates the real motor traders. You remember the first car you sold? I do. Yes. And it was a mini, a mini coupe. I'll never forget it to a lovely couple when it was in button for sure over back in Alsbury. I think it was on a Sunday, if I remember correctly. And they was just so overjoyed to be ordering, you know, their new car. And that was on a, that was after parts department when I moved into sales. So I'm going to say, um, cracky late eighties. Yeah, I think it was a fredgy, if I remember, which again, you more mature viewers will relate to registration marks of those days. It's going to age as both, I think. I know. It's definitely going to do that. So tell me, when you were selling them, any days that really stood out for you, anything they said, this is why I love your motor trades. What was it? Were you a car or people? Some people love the car side. Some people love the people side of it. What was it for you? Sure. Well, I guess honestly, it was the people I enjoyed working with people as clearly you and I, both do otherwise we wouldn't be in our careers. Um, and it was the people and we didn't live in a world like we have today where you had all the access to information, a lot less manufacturers in the UK, of course, a lot less dealerships in each town. Um, so you, you, you know, you wasn't so much focused or certainly I wasn't so much focused on the individual brand that you worked with. It was probably more location to be fair. Um, but working with people, seeing their smiles on their faces when they're ordering their new vehicles, a buy-in and approve juice car, you know, and I won't forget once. It was a clear memory of mine. It was a used Rover 827 Vitez. Now that was quite a car on its day. Yeah. I think it got off on the V6 engine and it, um, and, uh, he was a gentleman in the RAF. He was the customer and he bought the car and I was presenting him, um, the warranty, the extended warranty on it. In those days, you remember they had 12 months manufacturers warranty. So it was the top up warranty and I won't forget the cost of this warranty was like 1800 pounds. Wow. And it was back in late 80s, early 90s. Absolutely. It was a G-red to 1990 and red one. I can see it in my head today. Yeah. When it was, um, it was called the mechanic was the name of the warranty and we had like an A5 presenter that we used to show them what was covered. And in my head, I was going, no, customer's going to buy this, but I had such a sharp manager that if I didn't present it, I'd have been in deep water. Yeah. So I presented this warranty and the customer bought it and I never forget that moment. And you know, we look at some of those value added products today and, you know, they perceived expensive, but it came down to this individual recognizing, you know, a window motor might fail on this car here or an ABS module here or an ECU here, whatever it was. And he said his money back. So, so that was a big, a big point for me to remember that, yeah, people, great working with people, but also you got out the right products. But we're going to talk about that. So many times, don't you hear, say, and also after sales managers or, sorry, service by making the decision for the customer. Okay. Thinking, oh, they spend enough money service in their car. Okay. They're tires. They've got three meals on it. They're going to be fine. And it's just that story for me just sounds like just offer and let the customers decide. There's a guy called Gary Peters told me many years ago, he said, it's just like going to McDonald's. You wind your window down. They can have a big meal. And they turn around to everything I've got to say, certainly, you want to go large. But it's just offer it to every single person. And can meet people get offended by it? If they don't, they don't say, no, I don't. I'm off the Burger King. Shut the burger up your bum. They just offer. And that story for me, 1800 back in the late 80s early politics was a lot of money. But it was presented. That's what happened. So it happens so much, doesn't it? Absolutely, Simon. And yeah, you've got to do it. And if you don't get presented those value-added products, those additional products, you know, I'd be thinking, well, this is just a magnolia experience, right? Yeah. Why am I not getting the potential frills and the bits that package my experience, that make my ownership experience a lot better? So I think there's a huge negative of not offering the customer's products. Yeah. Yeah, they're drunk. My understanding is you've gone from sales and you spent a lot of time in the F&I role. Did you start in the same dealership as a business manager? I kind of did, actually. Yeah, it was through a company called Pat Ryan Associates who recognized as the... Yeah. The first business manager in the UK from Chicago in America, where they came to the UK in the late 80s. So I joined Pat Ryan Associates as one of what they called their specialist business managers. So you'd go around the UK, reproving the concept of F&I sales, where programs weren't working or it failed, or indeed it was a new business manager opening. And I think it was 6.93 to 99, really happy years with that company. And I kind of thanked them incredibly because they really invested in their people's excitement. You started on a two-week F&I course to become a business manager. It's just not heard of in today's world. So that was a really strong start. And as a young man, that's just what I needed. I needed training. I might have a good spirit about me, but we needed a professional trainer. And then that's what Pat Ryan, which laterally became A on Corporation, did. So yeah, 6 happy years with them. Really, really good times. Really happy. It's so true about that two-week course to be an F&I, a business manager. Does it happen anymore? And also, I just want to ask you, if you've gone to lots of different places... Yeah. You've seen the goods at the bad end of the ugly. So I just want to ask you, when you walked into a business, what made a good business manager? What were some of their character traits? What were some of their processes? Intangible products. I mean, it's well-read, well-referenced. Intangible products are more difficult to sell than intangible products because you're having to use kind of storytelling in your head. So again, the customer to imagine why they need this product. So a good thing for somebody that moves from selling physical cars into the more intangible products such as F&I, of course, is to have that skill or learn that skill of how to sell by painting pictures. And let's suppose this was to happen. And how would you feel about that? So that is a definite key requirement when you want to have success in today's market with selling some of those products that only work when you find yourself in challenging times such as Tar and Alloy and things like that. So that's key. And process has been said a million times before and this won't be new for your viewers. But have a good process that's embedded in your business, that everyone buys into and nobody's excluded from and every single customer goes through just like your McDonald's analogy. So I mean, it's so important that we don't make the decisions for the customer. The customer makes the decisions themselves. So to answer your question, process and an intellect where you enjoy selling by kind of painting pictures. Yeah. If I can go back to Pat Rhine days as well, I was showing, I can't remember the name of the person, but it was the first cash conversion. And I always thought that, hold on, this customer's rich. I was a young sales person. Of course, they're rich. They're just paying the money for it. Not realizing that no one really does. They're borrowing the money for a bank or a credit union in a different country or something like that there. Now, remember some of the cash conversions they alert, which are so clever, so simple. Now, I can say as an industry, we didn't really use cash conversions for years because interest rates were so low. But I tell you what, it still works today, doesn't it? Some of those same ideas? 100% for that small part of customers, you're absolutely right to say, you know, cars are funded, right? Yes, of course that. And often doing a cash conversion to a customer says they're cash, but actually the borrowing the money doesn't work because they can't understand what we're talking about. So qualifications to key to this one by the salesperson, qualifying the customer, right? But to pick up on your point, 100%, I think if I look back on my LinkedIn posts, it was about a year ago when we saw inflation, sorry, interest rates going back to proper positives like where they are today. I did a post about cash conversions are back, you know, polish up on your skills back into the compound interest and those things. And I wonder, you know, my LinkedIn posts aren't going to change the world, but I wonder how many people picked up on that and actually went out there and did it because, yeah, now if you are more fortunate enough to have a part of cash, I certainly want to be buying a car with it. You know, I'd be doing something that would generate good incomes with it. So I seen another social media post recently. In fact, I was on the course, someone said, have a look at this guy. He summed it very well and I'll get this wrong. I'm sure. But he said, there's this guy who's got a corner shop, okay, a guy called Jeff. And he's done a right with this corner shop. And he's bought himself a house recently. When I say house, it's attached to an island, okay? And it was 180 million. He shops called Amazon. So Jeff, Mr. Bezos, when he bought this house, do you think he got a mortgage on it? And of course, do you think it, but no, he's Jeff Bezos. I think he'll be right. But of course, he got a mortgage on his last property. And it says, well, why would he not when the mortgage was something like 2.8% and his Amazon shares were on him something like 6%. How mad would he be not to do it? It's just a lovely old post. And I know I'm not doing that justice. But the way it was worded very well about this little man had a corner shop did all right. But one of the richest people in the world still understands the power of using other people's money. And just that really resonated for me. Yeah. So cash conversions, I'm with you. You and I can go out there and deliver training on that Simon and help people, you know, enhance their finance penetrations. Sure. So how do we go from training, working with Pat Ryan associates there and deciding how the people like you and I think, right, I want to row my own boat. I want to start off with myself then. Big scary step sometimes. I can remember my first, first month I gave up a decent job, start my own business. I did exactly one day's training, Ashley, and I said to my wife, yeah, don't worry. It'll be fine. One whole day in September. I thought, what have I done here? Tell me about why do you decide to roll your own boat? Well, it's like a lot of people that end up working for themselves. Simon, I was forced into it because I'd came to the end of a contract abroad in Europe, actually, with GE capital. And that contract kind of finished. So I found myself out of a job in essence. And this was back in the millennium, 2000, 2001-ish. And I needed a job and it's okay to say names in here. Yeah, of course it is. So somebody that you'll know very well, Simon. So I needed a job. You know, I have bills to pay. I was like, Jeff, I had a mortgage. So myself and my business partner at the time, Andy, who I know you know very well, we found ourselves out of work. So we've done a bit of market research on should we set up a training business. And so we phoned people that would work within the past. And it was actually Gabriel Keene in Windsor, in Ireland, in the Republic of Ireland. And we'd worked with Gabriel whilst being employed at GE on the training side of things. And we said, Gabriel, we're just doing some market research. We're setting up on our own, setting up a training business, just you know, we'd value your opinion on it. And we said, you know, we're not asking for a loan or asking for money. He said, it's not a loan. So many of us were 10,000. And he said, and it was punts in those days, some men in voice for 10,000 punts. And we said, thanks, Gabriel, was just after some kind of advice. And would you work with us in the future type or some pointers? And he says, yeah, as I said, send men in voice for 10,000. We said, no, Gabriel, we're not asking for a loan or asking for money. He said, it's not a loan. Send men in voice for 10,000. And that'll get you going. And then we'll work with detail out later. Wow. And we had to have an invoice. Yeah. Because we've never done this before, right? And then we had to think about invoicing in different currencies because we've never done that. Obviously. So I fundamentally applaud Gabriel King, who's got his own dealer group in Ireland, as we know, for taking a leap of faith in us. And he actually kind of indirectly, directly started us up trading by person in a positive cash flow. We could pay the bills for a couple of months, right? That was the good one. So that's how it started. Yeah. Well, it wasn't something that was always on the radar. It was a set of circumstances. And as we all know, life is going to sound like Forrest Gump here, but life is those set of circumstances, right? And you're given a set of circumstances, and it's how you choose to play them. And, you know, we are Gabriel for that big time. Yeah. But you know what? I think you were lucky there. And listen, I do believe in luck. You create your own luck. You picked up the phone and spoke to him. You actually said, I want to do some market research there. Okay. And also, you did a really good job for him in the past for him to have the trust in you, just say, sending the invoice at 10,000. We sort the details out later. They trusted you. So you really aren't your own luck, man. And I sometimes, I do get people looking at, listen, we both work with people. We both work with lots of people like John O'Hanlon. Okay. Absolute built up a brilliant business there. People like Gavin Hyde's in Ireland is building a great business there. And I do get people say, almost vending. Well, they're lucky. And you think, no, you don't know the hours these guys work. The dedication, the hard work they've put into it. Again, where they are there. And I really do believe you make your luck in this world. Sure. And I think that's a great place. So the more I practice, the luckier I get, is that the right phrase? 100%. Yeah. Yeah. It is absolutely amazing. So you've been doing this for, it's going to be since 2000 or so. Yeah, 2000, 2001. Don't you're making me feel young. So I mean, yeah, so quite a few years now. Yeah, I've got a few scars, a few moments of joy. But it's what a wonderful industry to work in. Can imagine doing anything else to be quite frank. Right. Listen, I want to get some nitty gritty things about how you think the world's changing the motor trade. What's going to happen? Firstly, let's talk about the rise and fall of some of the disruptors. Okay. And we're importing this in June, 2024. In the UK, the likes of Kazoo, as the rise and fall of Kazoo. This is a company for people out to buy the UK. They had a flotation of 6.5. You know, I think it was a New York Stock Exchange and they've folded. There were so many other disruptions in the central world. It's more about marketplace. But a lot of these people are saying that the motor trade has to change. They were saying that we were dinosaurs. I think was in fact phrase that the man from Kazoo actually turned around and used. How have these people changed the way that we've got to go? Simon, I think markets change, right? In any industry, not just our industry, of course. But I think the thing that I always remember is that the market itself cleans in as well. So middle-aged people get old. Young people get middle-aged. So your customer base cleanses itself all the time. So maybe what works for me back in the 80s and 90s as a customer in terms of the way I bought cars by the boots on the floor and get a showroom, visiting five dealerships, you know, enjoying the whole process and negotiating, loving a good haggle, those sort of things. And now as I move through, you know, life. Now I look at the next generation of customers that you're going to be selling to for the next 20, 30, 40 years. And I'm very fortunate to have a 19 and a 20-year-old son, you know, at home in the house. So I've got the best market research you could ever want. And I look at how they buy things. And they are completely different. So the thing I just described. And my sons are absolutely this, you know, and it turns up. And if I'm on a rare day off and we want to go and look at a shiny new car, do you want to come with me and have a look, boys? And they just don't seem that interested. So I can see why those disruptors thought that there's a goldmine here and they can revolutionise the world and the way that we sell by moving to that online click and buy only experience. But clearly that isn't the case. But what they did do, of course, was sharpen up the retailers that we currently have. And let's not forget, you know, you mentioned a few names there. We're very fortunate. We have some super sharp operators, entrepreneurial business people in this country and wherever in the world, people are viewing your podcast from that kind of react quick and they'll be really good at what they do. So, you know, maybe that's all then just to sharpen up on their digital interaction and how they manage that. So, Kazoo, it's an awful shame when the disruptor, you know, doesn't go full circle where they want it to, but we always learn from it. And it helps along the way. And the people that say, you know, anything different, I think it's a shame because they've got their blinkers on and they should probably spend their energy looking internally at how they could kind of look at how they treat their customers or sell to their customers. Yeah, I think what the disruptors are did. They had lots of advertising and maybe they've changed the way that people not necessarily for the car. But the amount of information and getting what they expect before they come to us. And I have a 21 year old and a 18 year old. So two boys as well. And it just resonated with me when you said they don't want to go into a dealership. It's like, if you can't get it on an Amazon delivery, or tomorrow, forget that one next one because they want it now. They just want to click on it and get it there. And I think the customers just want information. They want so much information on the car. I was taught when I started years ago, or don't give the customer what they want to get what you want. It's an exchange of information. I believe that anymore because, you know, the customer will get that information somewhere else. Sure. They will. Now, having said that, and some of the people who listened to a podcast that did recently where, buy the car sometimes could be hard work. And if you're a consumer and you're old, let me. I'm 50 now. And if I walk into a dealership to go and want to buy a car, I urge people listeners that maybe that's a real customer. Okay. I know most of our customers start with the email first and the phone call and they're all pre qualified before you speak to them. But again, don't pre judge. There are some old people out there who still buy cars by wanting to touch it and drive it and take it for a run. In fact, actually, Ash, I'll get your views after COVID. You didn't have to be a genius to sell a new car, did you? You didn't have to be a genius to sell a new car. But I've got to say that we're going into a push market now. I really do think the manufacturers are pushing things. I think it's time for us to get back down to slowing the process down, back to good old fashioned basics. No. Good old fashioned basics? Is it still as relevant today as it was when we started? Even more so, Simon, when you describe rightly so, things like push markets, you know, and I know the time of day, we're shooting this now. So all of the morning sales meetings will have just taken place in every single dealership up and down the country, right? They would have done them without fail. Of course, that didn't happen. Yeah, back to basics. Get the team together every morning. You know, 100% that's what it's about. Have the wash up from yesterday. Who did we see yesterday? Where are we at to what we're doing? You know, I actually think quite about a new car a week ago, you know, with the capital allowances that are on offer at the moment in the UK. It's brilliant. You know, 100% on a video. Yeah. And here I am a week later with tiny information and not the phone call. It's just been managed over email. They've got my phone number. You can see it on email footer, but they've not picked the phone call up. And that's such a shame in today's push market. So your question was, is back to basics. Times 10. And the ones that can do that, roll up their sleeves and work it will be absolutely fine, of course. But the ones that don't do that will not get the ratios and the numbers that are not for. But why does that not work? Why does someone not pick up the phone and say, hello, Mr. Wiltshire. It's something here from XYZ EV company. Let me talk about that new I5. OK, why I don't get why a salesperson would want to do it, but here's because I'm 50. I have a 21 year old and 18 year old. They prefer just to do chat and text and would I have to actually speak to someone? But maybe they're forgetting that you'd probably prefer to have someone speak to you. Well, we would definitely transition a lot quicker if that happened. But obviously I won't mention more on that. But yeah, back to basics. Back to basics. Look at your numbers and start with a target. How many vehicles do you need to sell each month? No, you conversion ratios. So if you've got that number, they're all classic sales funnel working outwards. And then people need to be talking to have we got that walk in that inquiry level. If we haven't, where am I going to get it from? You know, there's so much resource in our dealerships as we know. The service diary still presents huge opportunities. Who's in your workshops today? Spending money servicing that three or four year old car that you can have a conversation with. There's probably a handful of opportunities out there today that if you just walk over there and speak to me after sales manager, you can mine some of those opportunities. Basics, basics, basics. Yeah, definitely. So I want to get your views on the agency sales model. We know that Mercedes-Benz has gone agency in the UK. And we know that the Volkswagen Energy Group are going down that route, BMW as well. All different dates coming within the next 12 months and some by the end of the year. And some like JLR have publicly said, we're not going to go down the agency route. And I think as a tide that we're not going to stop, is agency going to be good use, bad use for the dealers listening to this? And if it's coming, what do we have to do to prepare for it? Two good probing questions, Simon. So I like you. I look at what manufacturers are doing. And one that caught my attention a lot was Volvo. So Volvo went to agency last summer as we know. I think they called it the flip. You know, one day it was wholesale. The next day it was agency. And what I like about the transition in the brand of Volvo is it plays beautifully to all customers. So you mentioned us, more mature, even though we're young, so I mean us more mature. And our kids are in their 18s, 19s and 20s. And the great thing with that is you can go on that Volvo website. You can start your customer journey, absolutely populate it with your information. So that appeals to a lot of customers. And then when you do transition into the dealership, the data is captured and they just pick up where you left off. So I'll leave all the accountants to work out return on investments and margins and the benefits of no stock in charges versus stock. I'll leave all that to the really clever people on that one. But from a consumer point of view, yeah, I think it works. And then of course you get into that transparent pricing. Once we've all come to terms like the old Apple model, you know, the iPad is $4.99. That's what it is, probably a lot more than that now. Once we've got conditioned to the prices is the price you pay, I think we all go. Because remember, you and I love to haggle. Yep. That's something we enjoy in sales process. But my kids don't. Yeah. You know, is that your best price? Well, yeah, that is the price. Okay. And they buy. So I think agency represents clearly a lot of ease and transparency for customers of the future. And we've just got to get it on board and get it working. So yeah, I see it as a good thing. Many are going live with agency next year. You know, you're talking about you asked, how do we prepare for it? I know really you're putting a massive investment into training the whole network, which starts in October and runs right through to, I think, February next year. So you can't do this halfway house. Yeah. If you're going to go agency, you've got to embrace it. You've got to get some training on board. You've got to do the hearts and minds piece. Yes. , but it tells people understand, how this is going to benefit the consumer and how it will work for them. And they're not things been equally over prosecutor. Yeah. And now with agency, how's it affect the F and I role then, because, listen, a lot of time on the new car, the business measures role, it's done by the manufacturer anyway. With finance deposit contributions or allowances or chassis bonuses, they have to be called nowadays. Is there actually a position for a business measure in the modern dealership under agency? Sure, well, you know, we know that, as you mentioned, today the funding of it is a key ingredient, you know, there's probably five key ingredients in buying a new vehicle, and of course the affordability, the monthly payment is critical, of course it is. So it's a much more integrated approach, whereas we go back to when I was a business manager, you had the classic referral from the salesperson to your desk, and then you would deliver deliver your presentations. But now it's built in, and it's right on the front end from the get go, budget, budget, budget, budget, budget. So is there a role for F&I in the future? 5,000% because, you know, it's clear you can't sell vehicles without F&I, or a very small percentage of customers generally have cash. So it's good that manufacturers have got a bore with that with deposit contributions, you know, special offers, fixed price range, so kind of an agency model there, nice transparency, it's definitely, definitely a huge opportunity remains for F&I. But does the business manager, though, from when we were business managers back then, is it completely different role now? Because it has to be built in so early, and because there is transparency, the salesperson is talking about all F&I throughout. Does the business manager become, dare I say it, and I know I'm going to get lots of comments on this, the glorified administrator, though? So I mean, how I'd answer that is with a real example. So I'm fortunate enough to work with private data groups, and one in mind doesn't have business managers. So that'll have the transaction manager role, the CN role. And another data group I work with does have business managers, and they're very focused on having business managers. Now, what's interesting is, both of those data groups make a profit. I think it's set a conch above the quoted return on sales that most data groups talk about, and they do it differently, but they both do very well. But what both of those examples do is embrace a set of F&I behaviors. So whether they do it as a standalone traditional business manager role, and the group I'm talking about has nine business managers, or whereas another group I work with who don't have business managers do it as a transaction manager, they both get a success out of it. So that comes down to the vision of the owner of the business, really, and their commitment to it. And there's a cost in having a business manager. It's a sannery, but clearly it's a beneficial thing to do. And that leads beautifully into products like GAP, of course, some of the value-related products. And I can see why some people are now starting to question the validity of the business manager model. I think there's still a good future for it personally. And I'm not just being romantic because my career was heavily bolstered there. GAP's a great product. Let's be clear on that. And I do hope it comes back mainstreaming card dealerships, so many customers, and I can't quote you on the stats that benefits it from it in the past. So I'm sure they're sort that, that hollow blew out, and get that back in the showrooms as quick as possible. I really, really hope that happens. Back that people listen to this outside of the UK, GAP insurance was the regulator. The FCA said that we're not allowed to sell it. Was it February this year? I think it was 7th of February is the date I have in my mind that we're reviewing the product. I believe it's coming back. I don't know as dealers how many will offer it. My concern is there might not be enough reward for the risk depending on the value that we sell at that. I don't know yet. We'll have to wait and see what comes out with this. But I'm with you. It's a product I believe in. I think it's good. But if it doesn't come back, we still need to fill the gap of GAP. Because it was a great profit opportunity for a dealer. And I think it was great for the customer as well. But I don't know. In your views, do you think dealers, if they're told that what they could sell at that, will there be enough profit in it to make it worthwhile? Will we just look at more at Tire and Alloy and Smart Products as opposed to that? What's your view on where that's going to go? Well, I do hope it comes back firstly. I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on that as a consumer. It's a great product. Yeah. So, you know, and I guess there's a range, isn't there? There are some individuals, some businesses, let's say that there was selling GAP that cost them this. And they sold it for that. So I think there's the crux a bit. Conversely, there are the dealer groups out there that I'm fortunate enough to have worked with over the years that, you know, GAP costs them this, and they sold it for that. So they've made a smaller margin out of it. So definitely it can work. It's one of the products that's consumer centric should be promoted. You're in a dealership buying a car. It's a product that looks after you when things go wrong with your car. So absolutely, let's get it back in the showrooms. But priced sensibly, you know, with a margin on it, you know, you can't expect people to sell products for no benefit. You know, you have to make profit in a dealership. We know that. So yeah, I believe there's a big market for GAP there. Just get the numbers right, get the metrics right, a smaller margin on it. And it's a great value-added product. Yeah. And I've got to say that there was a miss selling, okay? And we know in the industry, there were people saying, and the great news is that's fully protected. The first time the customer knew they had this stuff was on handover, which is wrong in every way. And I've got so frustrated because when you show a customer what GAP is, what it does, when you compare the cover they get compared to what they pay on their comprehensive vehicle insurance, it is such good value. I'm sure there are people out there that missold it and jammed it in. We know what's happened. But now if you're in far between, I really do think, if you show people what this product is, what it does and how it benefits people, guess what? Fun enough, like the old McDonald's adage, some people say, go on, I'll go large, go on, that makes sense. And they'll say, as a consumer myself, I believe in it. My cars have GAP on it because I just think it's a good product there. Yeah. That goes full circle to a couple of your questions earlier. Back to basics. Sales process, is it a business manager program, or is it kind of a transaction manager program? Don't really mind which one it is. But if you are a business manager program, great. You know that you're presenting 100% of your products, the McDonald's model, to 100% of your customers, 100% of the time. And if you're a transaction or a controlling type sales model, then the transaction manager or sales controller must get out there and second-face all customers. You know, to question them, why haven't you taken advantage of some of the products that Simon's presented to you? You know, we want to make sure you have a great experience, or congratulate them for taking the product, so make sure that they know they've got it. So there's a space here in which every model you use, just back to basics, business managers will be presenting it, transaction managers definitely should be second-face in it. Any manager listening, if you want to make a mark very quickly in real department, please just make sure you double-close second-face, call it what you want, 100% of customers, 100% of the time, is the easiest way that you will make it in the past. What happens is one of the reasons we've got the government mentors, what people buy think, the fundamentals of comparison. To feel like they go a good deal, they need to compare it to something else. That's why agency going down to the Apple model, if the iPad is 499, as you said before, and it's everywhere 499, I've done my comparison, it's the same price everywhere else. However, currently, if it's different prices everywhere, people don't know if it's a good deal. They need to compare it to something else. If your salesperson just presents the deal, the customer has no idea if it's the best deal. So they have to say, I need to think about it. They need to go compare it to something else, especially when you look at the trading points. If the customer says, you've got 14,500, is that really the best one to get through? Even as I mentioned, coming out there and just looking at the salesperson is already said, it's a second textbook. You can submit that. Let's say, actually, you're still, you go through the document. They do one test on you, your own test, they do all that. Sorry, I missed that actually. Here's your results. This is the issue we need. You might want to second the period. Does that second opinion have to come from a separate hospital? No, it only has to come from a separate expert within the hospital. Manage us, listen, this, you're the second expert. Please, please, please, just second face. Every single customer, every single client. It doesn't happen in our fashion. Sure. I love your passion on that one. Yeah, I've got to be done. I've got to be done. So talking about this, it's a great thing out there. What makes a great dream? And if I have managed to divide in this industry for a long time, they're safe. We've had our same clients. We've had one client for the whole period. You've had the same as well. And I know John on Hamlin, we wouldn't be using unless you're doing a great job. What are some of the character traits for a really good train? You've got to be keen on solving problems and enjoy the benefits that you get from that and seeing people in teams move forward. And that's where you get your kicks in this job, isn't it? You know, helping people and seeing their careers develop and move forward. It's just a great feeling and it's hard to quantify that. Of course, we've got to pay the bills. There's normally an invoice somewhere in the pipeline. But yeah, being people orientated, it's a natural extension. If anyone's thinking of moving into a training role out there, it's a natural extension from a sales role. It's a natural extension from F&I because that's intangible products again. And we use those same skills in the classroom. Because in essence, I often refer to myself as a salesperson in the classroom because I am rather than the people in the room that sell cars or F&I or products and services, which is selling concepts and ideas. OK. Undeminently, we're salespeople just to a bigger family. It could be 12 or 30 people in the room. So yeah, a joy and a passion for sales is a big thing, definitely. That will take you a long way, of course. And then of course, you have to be up for working hard. Sometimes people perceive it to be an easy role. But like you, I often get into the vehicle on a Sunday afternoon and I return home on a Friday night fingers crossed on you away all week. Because clients don't come to you, you have to go to them. And that makes an awful lot of sense, of course. You want to minimize the travel time for your audience. So we take on the legwork, right? Yeah, so be up to some hard work, enjoy sales, like working with people, and love a positive challenge because you never know who's going to walk through that door sometimes in terms of the classroom. And someone might be having a bad day and being told they've got to go on a training course. Sadly, they've not had a pre-brief. Something that their manager might have dropped the ball and just got them there. And they're not in the best frame of mind. And you have to work a little bit harder with people like that. It's not a challenge, though, when you turn them around. Yes, she's good. Yeah. For me, you know, I had went... When you had that audience in front of you, it's 12 to 30 people. I want to close every one of them. I just want to... And that's my... I don't think I've ever closed everyone on every course I've ever done. But that's my aim. That's what I try to think. It's quite funny to be the other thing. You must get this. And it happened to me just on Friday. I had a salesperson. Good salesperson. I was in the school to get Ireland. And I thought you'll know where that is. No. And he said, Oh, you've got a good job, haven't you? You don't have to work Saturdays. OK, it's actually pretty good. Look at this. You finished the course at 5.30. What a job. And why do they always pick it on the days where Ryanair was delayed? I didn't get on the flight until 12, 30 at night. And while I was walking in at 2.30 in the morning. And I just, you know, it's a good job. You finish at 5.30. Now, don't get wrong. I do love the job. OK, but the travel, it's hard work sometimes. So if you want to be a trainer, we're looking to employ a trainer at the moment. And actually it's hard work. People, the amount of times I say, why do you want to look at training? And when they start saying, I'm looking for an easier life. I'm looking for more time with my family. I'm looking for, and it's like, unfortunately, they just don't see it. And maybe we just make the job look easy. Maybe that's what it is. They don't see all the other side of the business. Yeah, right. And Simon, you say we make the job look easy. And that is the job, isn't it? That's what we should do. Because when a customer walks into a car dealership, they shouldn't see the challenges that dealerships got going on behind the scenes, whether they've got a valetor of sick today, or they're a technician short, or the administrators on holiday or whatever, no customer should feel that in a dealership. And it's the same for you and I. So you and I will be there at 10 o'clock the night before refreshing a training programme. I'll be there, you'll be there on a Saturday and Sunday, writing, printing, binding workbooks, and doing invoicing and admin and vac quarters and all that sort of stuff that nobody sees. They just see the nine to five in the classroom. And you're absolutely right. They shouldn't see that. Because that's the consumer experience that you and I deliver. So it's a place of beautiful double edged sword, that one. It's perceived as an easy job. It absolutely is. But yeah, good luck with finding, you know, trainer. I'm afraid I have no one to recommend. It's really hard to find people. They are. It is so true. It's, and listen, I get it because we spend so much time away from our family. Okay, and, but the rewards of the job are brilliant. I do absolutely love it where you, you will get, and you've been there. You get that salesperson. So now I had a business somewhere and think, ah, I started them with their journey and look where they are now. And I just get a huge buzz out of that. And tell me, did you have any mentors along the way? Have you been in training programs? I know the NADA conference. You see other people out there that you think, wow, I really like that. Any mentors stick out for you? Yeah, absolutely. And I would, you know, hot tip, not that people are asking for hot tips, but is get yourself a mentor. So I do have a mentor. Let's call him Tim because his name is Tim. It's someone that's been in my life. He lives in Surrey and I check him with him regular. And he's a beautifully commercially minded individual. And he's got a strength of character where I look in the eyes and tell me what I need to know, even though sometimes it's not kind of what I wanted to hear. So, yeah, so Tim is my mentor and on the management development programs that I promote and deliver personally, you know, don't outsource or work with as opposed to outsourced, I always build that into the programs. And some delegates I'm training that are looking to be a sparring manager's, take a board and say, how do I get a mentor? It says, well, it's just someone that inspires you. And then you go and ask them, how would you feel if, you know, if would you mind mentoring and coaching and supporting me? And they take it as a compliment because it is a compliment. And you could flip it back over to car sales. You know, when you hand in the car over to a customer on hand every day, is don't forget to ask them for a referral. Who else in your circle of friends or family would benefit from the level of service that I've extended to you today is a pen and paper. Have you got anybody? So it's exactly the same for us. Go and get a mentor. So, yeah, mine's called Tim. Yes, there's people that have inspired me through my career. You know, you've mentioned John O'Hannell and Inspirational, a business operator, always keep a close eye on John. And the people like that that I meet through my career. Yeah, definitely. Can you talk me through some of your leadership development programs you're doing, your future leader programs that you're doing? Yes, I'm working with a couple of clients. Something I'm really passionate about and I enjoy, you know, the bottom line is top talent won't stay in a company. If, you know, the leaders of that business don't have their their growth on the radar. So, you know, I really urge every company to have some type of management development program, aspiring manager program, future leaders program. It should be an invitation. That's what I endorse with my clients. So, you know, you apply to go on a program like this, then there's some type of gateway exercise, you know, some criteria to achieve if you're going to take a seat on the program. And then we take them through, it's normally 12 months. It's normally by monthly, a couple of days every other month around management principles, understanding the business, commercial awareness, delivering training programs, process, attitude, writing business plans, a little charity event dropped in there and space over year with a past marker sign to it. And it helps the business get ready for its next growth expansion. So, they've got people in their talent pool ready to promote that they know a great and I'm very fortunate to work with one, two, three clients that have that in place now. Mr. Hanlon being one of those. And he's a big, big supporter of that. You know, because the bottom line is when people leave a business, it's their fault, it's the managers fault. So, programs like this keep people in a company, it reduces employee churn. And it's a great indicator as well. If you look at employee satisfaction as a KPI, it's often a good indicator for your customer experience as well. So, yeah, big fan of MDPs or FLPs or aspiring programs and a lot of opportunity for them in this market. Yeah, and I'll go and say the programs like that have, it just works, it absolutely works. Instead of having to go and out to open market and try and employ people, it's very, very difficult. And I suppose we're the same looking for a trainer. We would normally employ a trainer who's not been a trainer and we like to develop them. Like yourself, we go on so many courses ourselves now, because we have to. We probably go more training than anyone else does, because we have to bear and it's rode your people. I just love those you to leave the programs there. How do people get hold of you? Actually, what's the easiest way to get hold of you? The best way to get hold of me, Simon is something I'm passionate about. Is my LinkedIn? You and I converse on their frequently. So, yeah, LinkedIn's a great portal, great for B2B. So, yeah, please, please find me there. So, that's Ashley Wilshire. Ashley, I really enjoyed that conversation today. Is there anything I should have asked you? Is there anything that I've missed out that I should have been asking? No, Simon, just we should have done this years ago, my friend. This is true. We're well and truly over to that beer. So, we need to catch up there because we're all in same circles all the time there. So, that sounds like a great idea. Thank you, Tom. It's been great seeing you. Good to see you, Ashley. Bye. Take care. That just leaves me to say that all details of this episode and other episodes on the selling in the motor trade can be found on our website, simcotraining.co.uk. Go there to get a copy of our book, Words That Sell Cars. Go there to sign up to a free trial of our sales fitness online sales training program. Easiest way to get hold of me is Simon Bowkett, true LinkedIn. Thank you.