Manage Your Chimp

In our second book club episode with Jason Cranswick, we discuss the ‘The Chimp Paradox’ by Steve Peters

This is a brilliant and enlightening read.  Steve explains how we all have effectively three brains and the chimp is one of them. It’s the first part of your brain to react, which makes it vitally important in your professional and personal life to learn the manage it.

Your chimp will always be there, it thrives on stress, you can’t kill it but you can programme yourself to moderate it.

Here are the highlights:

{04:00} Three Brains

{10:43} Programme Your Computer

{12:04} Techniques

{25:20} Leadership Shadow

{26:34} ABC

About Symco Training:

Symco Training was founded in 2000 by Simon Bowkett and it was his belief that the business had to offer its clients something different. That difference was clear to Simon from his days in the dealership when he experienced many sales trainers who had all the answers, but were unable, unwilling or both to actually show the delegate how they could be implemented. It remains the ethos of the business today. You see, Symco only employ trainers that are committed to delivering not only in spiring and insightful training, but are equally as happy to demonstrate these skills and techniques with real customers in your own showroom. We believe in order for sales training to be effective and in Simon’s words ‘real world’, it needs to be tried and tested in the only place it matters the showroom floor. There is no room for theory when your goals are for your team to sell more cars, hours or parts and retain more profit. In dealerships around the world the focus applied by many of the sales executives is to try and sell a deal. Symco specialise in getting your teams to focus on selling themselves, the product and then supporting this with the deal.

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Welcome to the Selling and the Motor Trade Podcast, an association with Symco Training. This is the weekly podcast where we share best practice tips and ideas on how to sell more cars, improve your service department and generally put more profit into your dealership or dealer group. I'm your host, Simon Bowkett. As some of you probably already know me as Skipping, I would start by saying thank you for taking the time to listen to this podcast. So welcome to another episode of Selling and the Motor Trade. Now this is by special request. Jason and I, we did a book club with the one of a better words, a while back and I'm going to say thank you. It just went down really, really well. It was shared to so many different people there. I've had so many anecdotal stories where people said, ah, we love that. Can you do it again? Of course, here we are. Welcome back, Jason. You've been, thank you to be, you know, for the kind of invitation to come back. I don't know whether we're Chuckle Brothers, you know, Lower and Lower, Engine Bracket. I guess it depends on what demographic you are. You've understand those references, but yeah, good to be. Yeah, it is. And now with this one, for people who are watching the podcast, I'm in a hotel room in Dublin. Jason is home. It's 7.30 at night, something like that. We've both got a glass of red in our hands. Yes. And this could go absolutely anywhere. Okay. And the book we're choosing this time is The Chimp Paradox, written by Professor Stephen Peters back in 2012. This is a book that we just had a conversation with you, Valanne. It's a heavy book. It's a big read. And Jason, I think you summed it up very well. Professor Stephen Peters is one smart man. Yeah. Yeah. He's, you know, he's, he's, he's an incredible guy. I had the privilege of meeting him in about 2013. And so that's what inspired me to read the book in the first place. But some, you know, he is a, you know, he's a psychiatrist. He's not a psychologist. He's a psychiatrist. You know, this guy's worked in Broadmoor, you know, so he's dealt with some very complex individuals, but also, you know, he's really, really active in sports, high performance. He was the brains behind the aggregation marginal gains. So although Dave Brailsford takes the credit. I didn't know that. The actual, the actual stimulus for it was the features. The sky cycling team. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I didn't realize that part of it there. So listen, to, to summarize the book, I'm going to do this in a quick 30 seconds. And then we're going to pick it the bits as we can and how people can get the best out of it. And as always, we're not going to read the whole book for you. Our goal for this is at the end of it for you to want to go and get the book, listen to the book and order them, go and put the book beside your bed, read a chapter or two, come back to it. I know, Jess and I had to actually, it's such a heavy one. I had to go back to it two or three different times and say, okay, this is getting a bit deep for me now. Yeah. Yeah. When I first read it, I probably got a third of the way through. And I probably felt I'd picked up enough. And to be honest, if you only read the first third, you probably will pick up, you know, enough to make it worthwhile. I had to go back. I've actually done this one, I think, as you have on audio book over the last couple of weeks, every time I jump into the car, it comes on. And I've really enjoyed it. And I have to say, I've kind of absorbed a hell of a lot more in front of my wife, realized I had the audio book when she was going through kind of the listing and she's been listening to it in the car. And we've had some really interesting chats about invariably my chimp. Yes. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about the chimp. And this is my 32nd guide. Okay. We have three brains. That's what I got from this. We have the chimp, which is the limb-back system, if I'm pronouncing that right. That's the one that's deep down in our brain. We kind of evolved from chimpanzees. And it's the one that reacts. It's the one that we need to control. We have the human, the frontal lobe. And I've got an elderly mother and she's starting to have issues with her frontal lobe and it's, and that's really helped for me because I can see how the human, which is the rational part of the brain, is actually, it's quite sad, but you can see that happening there. So the frontal lobe, I want to talk about that. I mean, some of my personal things I've seen there. But then to me, the biggest one is the computer. The computer, parental lobe, I don't think I'm pronouncing that correctly there. But the computer is the one that we need to learn how to reprogram. And the book sets up very quickly where right at the beginning of it is when you react to a situation, who's reacting? Is it the chimp? Is it the human? Or is it the computer? Because how do we do things on autopilot that just happens and we get into that cycle where we just react again and again and again? That's my 30 seconds. And without wanting to sort of take the punch line away for this, one of the things that I came to discover is the first thing that always reacts is the chimp. So much as there's those three parts of the brain, the chimp, the human, the computer, what I hadn't understood until rereading it is that the first thing always to react is the chimp. Of course, chimp lives on fire flight. So you get a reaction, but the chimp also always looks back to the computer to validate or for a view. And so you're without running it past the computer first, exactly. But to be remembered, the first thing always is the chimp. It's funny when I met Suste a few years back, we had him speak at a conference and he was talking about some of the things he's done mainly with sports people to get them to have an autopilot, to have an instinct reaction to the chimp, to stop the chimp doing the thing the chimp will do. And you'll often see it with footballers where the red mist comes down. So the first thing they do is actually pull the socks up and you've got people like Rooney, Beckham, Bellamy, who always had the red mist issue, but when you watch them, they're autopilot to overcome the chimp was just pulling the socks up and it just slows it down and stops the chimp taken over. See, I'm glad you said that. I am naively before I read the book, because you make assumptions, people have told me about it. I thought, ah, this is about to kill the chimp. This is about to get rid of the chimp. I don't need a chimp. I've evolved into the human brain and then the computer brain, but you're never going to kill the chimp. And what was it? Do you remember? Is the chimp five times stronger than the human? I think it's multiple times. Yeah, you're probably right. A five could be 10, but it is incredibly, incredibly powerful and is the natural instinct. We did, who moved my cheese last time, didn't we? Yeah. And the chimp shows itself in there with Hemann Hall, doesn't it? Yes, it does. It's exactly. The way the chimp, there's so many things where it just reacts into other things. There's another book, I don't know where the story comes from, and it might even be Professor Stephen Peters himself, he said it, but, and this summed up to me, you're on a train and you see there's this man by himself, a father, and the kids are running around like lunatics, they're jumping on the furniture, they're playing those, push them bell and everything. And you get in frustrated with it. And you want to go out there and yell at these people or the father and say, can you control your children? What are you doing? And that's the chimp coming out there. And then he turns around and says, ah, yeah, sorry. We just come from the hospital where we found out their mother's not going to make it, she has thermal cancer. And then a heartbeat, the human takes over and that sympathy. Now I don't even know if it's from that, it's definitely not from this book, but again, I can see the scenario there was the chimp that makes us react there. Yeah. Someone cuts you up in traffic and the chimp comes out and me. And then having that hold on, the human takes over and says, maybe they're late. I've got people up in traffic. I've been trying to get somewhere in time there. But it's hard. Do you find it hard to put the chimp back in this box? It's funny, skip over the last few months as trading the industry has changed. You know, I've certainly seen my chimp come out on a periodic basis. I won't say how frequently, but I know the chimp comes. And I think reading this book or listening to this book again over the last couple of weeks helped me rationalize the chimp. And it's funny, I think as a few of us have been suffering with this, they call it the 100 day cough recently where you know, got this cough and cold and you feel generally the thargy can run down. And of course, all that does, it gives the chimp room to play. So I've seen this happen more often than maybe I've liked. And it's funny at work, you know, we actually now start calling out the chimp, you know, and that's almost the, you know, we've made it safe to talk about the chimp. But similarly, I think what Steve talks about in this book is the chimp thrives on stress. And because it's the first thing to react in a stressful situation, the fight of flight kicks in. And you know, it will look back to the computer to try and work out how do you humanize this reaction. And it talks about, you know, having a technique of recognizing is the chimp. You can't kill a chimp. You're not allowed to kill chimp, by the way, but you can't kill the chimp. Chimp will always be there. The chimp will always react first. But if you recognize that you've maybe got a chimp reaction, you kind of slow it down, step back, just breathe, and have that sort of plan. And it's that autopilot. What do you program yourself to do, you know, when the chimp takes over? So, you know, do you choose to listen? Do you choose to step out? You know, do you choose just to count to three, whatever it might be? But I can only imagine, as a few of the guys and girls tuned into this today thinking, oh my God, I bet my chimp is showing itself more than it should. And maybe I'm letting the chimp run wild in the jungle, rather than getting the computer and the human to take over that autopilot situation. That's what I learned so much about how to program the computer. And one of the snaries that's quite straightforward when you think about it, but it affects us and so much in life. Okay. In that stress situation, you're anxious about something. You've got to do something and you reach for the junk food and you go and do all that sort of stuff there because that's how it gets rid of stress. Okay. You know, I screen get me the glass one. This is great. We both got a glass of red on the go here. Okay. And that's almost like the habit, stressful situation. What do you do? You see something. I'm not a smoker. I've never been a smoker, but stressful situation. Go and have that smoke. And it's actually the smokes probably in the hand of guessing before they've even thought about it. It's reprogramming it, realizing that the computer is just gone into autopilot. It's just gone into that gremlin. I think he calls them and that gremlin there, you can actually get rid of the gremlins. You can turn around and go, ah, I know that I'm in a stressful situation. I normally go for the glass of red or the junk food. So I'm going to go for a walk first. I'm going to actually go outside, walk around the dealership, come back in and then deal with it. And this is what I learned again. Second reading is actually the more you do it, the more you reprogram that computer. So you touched on a couple of things there about gremlins. I think we should talk about gremlins because you've got a couple of things going on here. You've got the chip that lies to run while it's fire or flight. It lives in the jungle, survival instinct. You've got the computer, which is theoretical, logical, but the computer has gremlins. So we need to think about that effect. And the other thing I think we can all relate to this is chimps are in troops. So what often happens is the chimp gets reinforced because there's another chimp in the room or another two or three chimps in the room. And funnily enough, I heard this today in a meeting where two or three chimps came out at once and it's an incredibly powerful force. So if you imagine a scenario where you've got three chimps and then there's a room in the computer, you are absolutely done for. But knowing this, as you say, maybe that's time we go. Time out guys. Let's just go and board the block, come back in and just look at this through fresh eyes. Well, I love in the sporting world. And we learn so much from the sporting world in business. I mean, these guys are top elite athletes. And what you said there as well, when the red mist comes down, just pull the socks up. OK, it's just doing that something to that's putting the chimp back in the box, isn't it? And it's funny because, yeah, and you know, a lot of sports people have these unusual ticks, you know, I think both you and I are in catches. You know, we follow the overall shape ball, rather than necessarily the round one. But you see it in both sports, you know, when people are getting set for the penalty kick, they have a routine. They have a routine to get into, you know, and, you know, and Farrell has the eyes. And some of them have some unusual sort of setups. A lot of that is just about slowing it down. And again, you know, I know in the football world, the reference that Steve Pizzas gave was Craig Bellamy, who had a bit of a reputation, I think, for kicking off. You know, but he was the one who was one of them that absolutely his thing was just stop, pull the socks up because maybe you're just going to get over it. And I remember hearing an interesting discussion once on a rugby reference where, you know, why do you argue with the ref? Have you ever seen a decision overturned because the play rugby with the ref? But we sit in rooms every day individually with our teams where effectively you're arguing with the ref. That's the chimp. Yeah. Just for people listening to, we always love you to go and listen to the book after it's read the book. And I suppose this is all about to inspire you to go and share the book with other people in your businesses. But for me, what I picked up from the chimp. It's back in caveman days, the chimp just wants to survive. See a chimp by himself won't survive. So he needs to be part of a group there. So what happens is that survival instinct thing comes in when there's a threat. Now the chimp will never be killed. That's how I thought because it's there to save us. So if a car is coming towards you and you need to get out of the way, you know what? The chimp is going to take over and get you out of the way. The human's not going to sit there. The human reacts to slow. The human needs time to think. So we almost need, in fact, have I got that right there? Actually, it's not the human. It's actually the computer there, isn't it? That's the computer that I'm part of. Yeah. Yeah. Is the computer that I'm part of? Got a program. Yeah. And it's funny because one of the, and I was making notes, I was listening to it this evening on the way home and when I got home, I had a whole sort of page of angst that I needed to write down, you know, which talks about lots of different things, imposter syndrome and triggers and so on. But one of the points on the stress response is, you know, you've got the choice of either react or deal with it. Well, the chimp does it reacts. But the computer and the human, if they're allowed to take back control, they deal. So of course, it's that whole process of getting the chimp to back away, the computer to kick in and the human to rationalize and have a, you know, a more human and rational and less emotional reaction to it. We, you know what, Skip, we sound as though, and I wouldn't want to come across this, we sound as though we were somewhat evangelical about this and that we've got the answers. I haven't, I've got to tell you, you know, my chimp and I see it now. I didn't see it. You know, if I look back a couple of weeks ago, I was feeling under the weather, you know, I've been carrying this, this, this, this sort of virus, it was. And suddenly your, your sensitivity to the chimp goes down and suddenly the chimp, he kicks in, he loves it. You know, and I think, you know, what we're trying to always do is, is moderate and modulate the, the chimp. But there are things that trigger the chimp that, that, you know, it's really hard to overcome it. It is, for me, it's the chimp, it is when they feel vulnerable. Okay. That's when the aggression comes out. Okay. And I think, hold on, my place in society as a chimp is being threatened here. They're going to push me out there. I need to dominate this. Listen, even an argument with my wife, Emma, goodness me, I can see the chimp coming out all the time. What a ridiculous idea that is. But it's just like, it's the chimp talking because I need to win this argument because my social standing is close. But hold on when the human comes out. What is this argument about? It's something stupid. It's a power pole that's been moved on the property somewhere. And it's just a ridiculous idea there. But the chimp comes over because, and it is more powerful. It jumps in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is fascinating in the script. You know, as you kind of work your way through the book, you know, there's some good clues in that. I think, I think, I think what the author does, he gives you some, some, some good ideas and things that you can put into practice. It is exactly that's practice. You know, how do you reprogram it? But I think the first thing to remember is, you know, the dominant first reaction is always that of chimp. So knowing that is quite a powerful thing to realize because whatever you do, your first reaction is likely to be chimp unless you've got a very high level of emotional control and, and, you know, conscious about trying to manage it. And you know, it's the chimp that they actually down. And you know, often we're in situations where there's multiple chimp. Sometimes it's even competing chimps. And you know, what we've got to do is find find a kind of a way through that and, and get into a better place. And you kind of touched on this before and I hadn't realized, you know, I hadn't spent about this, you know, kind of, you know, how chimps present themselves and, you know, like you, we've got experience in our family of, you know, from dementia. And it's really hard because you get to see it then. That's the chimp. Now, I guess where maybe you and I or others might have the opportunity to rationalize it is we can dial up the computer. We can dial up intentionally the human and we can over on the chimp. But there are people and it could be that they're, you know, to be able to venture, but you know, there's other, there's other people in our businesses every day that have different needs. You know, how many of us have got, you know, people with ADHD or, or, or, or, or, or, dyslexia, these things all, all are factors that mean their ability to moderate the chimp become taller. It's that frontal lobe dementia. It really is. Yeah. And anyone else who's have family love what's going through this, it's tough because there's someone that you love and you think this person is, hold on, this is not the person that raised me. Who is this? Why is she reacting like this? And, and it's quite sad and dementia. It's a frontal lobe. For me, I got from the book. That's what's happening there. That the human side of it is the one that's struggling there. And the chimp is taking over more. And the chimp's come out and saying just horrible stuff sometimes. I sit here, you know, one of the things that we have a bit of fun with the chimp and work, you know, I think my team are aware that I'm back on the chimp, this sort of mission and a couple of them have either recently read it or whatever. Do they? I'd love to hear that. I was in the meeting. The whole of the chimp's out there. Yeah, well, exactly. You know, some of the colleagues that are in my team and we had a meeting the other day and two of them said, well, that's, you know, we're here, but we also hear the chimp, you know, and so we've actually made it a bit of a bit of fun. That's good. You know, by the same token, I called it out today in a meeting and I said, look, please, do you want to just think about that? Is that chimp reaction? And it was enough for them to go. Yeah, well, so I wasn't offended by it. But again, this is where you can have some fun with the whole concept. For context? I just have to say, context, people listen to this in other parts of the world. Jason runs the Maribani group in the UK. So this is the Norton Way group, the RIG group, HPL, and he is, how many employees do you look after there, Jason? About 1,200 across the group and directly in the Norton Way business, I've got about 450. So I imagine there's lots there and I just absolutely love the idea that you talk about, say, hey, the chimp's there and they can say that to us. I suppose that helps put the chimp back in the box sometimes. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Yeah. Three things for the chimp that I got from the book. And again, this was only on a reread. When the chimp comes out, exercise the chimp, okay, put the chimp in the box or feed the chimp. Now, for me, the exercise, the chimp, it works. Okay. It's just like, hold on. That's the chimp talking there. Okay. Let's go and exercise. Now, exercising doesn't mean go on for a run. Okay. I need to go out there. But actually, exercise the chimp is do something else first. Okay. Get into something else. Come back to that there and give it time. Give it time there. Putting it in a box, almost identifying. That is the chimp there. Right. You mess it up, or it'll be up on the bookshelf in that box. I'm going to come back to you when I got time. And it knows that. But also keep the chimp busy doing something else. We said before, you're not going to kill the chimp. It's there. It's more powerful than you. It's going to react straight away there. You got to do one of those three things controller. Okay. Please read the book because there's lots of good ideas on how to do those three things in the book. Let's give us all the same things as you. The big takeaway for me was that whole thing that the first reaction is always the chimp. So expect that. Deal with it. Find that strategy for getting the computer and the human to take over. I think to your point, I'd love everybody to sit and read voraciously with the book. It's not going to happen. But for £7.99, download the book and listen to it in the car. We're in the car for hours, aren't we, across it a day or a week. I think it's eight hours end to end just to set an expectation. Sounds a lot. But if you think about that, that's probably one week of commuting for most, most big line industry. Yeah, it is. Especially in the southeast where you are. Some people might think that hold on. The chimp is nature. That's how you're being born. That's how it is. But for me, it's nurture. We can re-program this computer. We can train the chimp. We can keep the chimp busy. I just got a lot out of that. Looking back in time, how it's really affected people on that one. It's some really powerful stuff in Neskip. I'm with you. I think it's... We do things unintendingly that start to weigh people down in the mind. Whether it's in our dealership teams, families. We can often do things that have the law of unintended consequences as wise as it meant that may have said. I think that's something we need to be aware of. I think for the managers and leaders that listen to this, we must really recognise the shadow that we leave. Our leadership shadow is really important thing to be aware of. I think we've got to do a lot to help all of our teams to perform tie levels because I think anybody turns up to do a bad job. Everybody has degrees of imposter syndrome. That's fed by the chimp. The large job, I think, is to try and find ways of seeing people through that and giving people techniques to an opportunity to rehearse. What advice do you have for me when I still see... I know it's there, but there's another chimp in the room. The other chimp start coming there. They don't know. They've not read the book. I'd love to say here. Go and listen to this audio podcast. I feel my chimp coming out. Any tips you've picked up over the years on how to manage someone else's chimp? There is a technique and you prompted me to think about it. So finally, I was talking to one of my team who's doing a presentation next week about this. There's a classic media training technique, ABC, to knowledge bridge control. I think what you've got there, when you've got two chimps together, there's almost that. I hear you. The knowledge. The bridge is taking it to a different dimension. So I hear what would it take to think about things this way or have you ever thought of it this way? So a knowledge, a bridge, take it across a different place and then control it in a different way. I think almost just making it safer than to land gracefully so that they don't get a more of a chimp reaction, but taking it in a different direction. Because you see this all too often as you end up with the truth of chimps fighting each other in public and it becomes disruptive. So I think for me, ABC, a knowledge bridge control. That's great. I hear. Yeah. Have you thought of it in this way? Yeah. It's a bridge. And then control it is then give it a very human reaction. But that's almost the same as you putting your socks up. Just pull, slow it down and just step back and have a plan. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds quite clever for once. That was very good. I'm impressed with that. Okay. It is true. It is absolutely true because I suppose lots of sales managers will be listening this and they'll be thinking, I've got my top salesperson who's the chimp. Lots of service managers will say, hold on, I've got the mechanic, the technician I need in, but he's the ringleader of the chimp and he'll get all the other chimps on site and he almost want to fight that chimp to put him in the place. But that's never going to work. No, no, absolutely not. And the other thing is it's that autopilot. Look for Gremlins as well. How many Gremlins stop us in day to day life all the time? He also went into Goblins. Now, Goblins, he said that might be something real deep. And I kind of struggle with the difference between Gremlins and Goblins. And if I can quickly explain this, Gremlins are something that you can get rid of. Gremlins is a bit of one of those public speaking. Okay. You're not going to get hurt. You're not going to get killed. Nothing's going to happen bad now. Now back in caveman days, if you're ostracized from the group, that might mean death. But actually now that's not going to be an issue. Okay. So that's a Gremlins. Goblins though, that might be something deep seated. That might be a real issue that I think you need a professional to go and help with that one. Yeah. Yeah. He takes that. Yeah. There are things that you can't move there. The other thing I want to go on, listen to this, I urge everyone to go and search out a man called Tim Urban. Now Tim Urban said, in the mind of a procrastinator, this is not a book or whatever, it's a little YouTube video. And the YouTube video talks about why we procrastinate. It's purely the chimp. And he talks about the chimp. Okay. The chimp wants instant gratification. It wants that fun, fun, fun right now. The human wants to hold on. Let's get on with this and do work and look at long time success. The chimp wants instant gratification. And he talks about this great story about how he's got six months to write a final thesis. Okay. And he says, well, that's plenty of time. What he'll do is he'll just do it nice and a bit every day, every day, every day, and he'll have the 90,000 words written. And that was fine until one month went by, three months went by. Okay. He got to the final week. Nothing had happened. And then he said, the chimp woke up and went into panic mode. And the chimp. The chimp has actually good and bad in his story. The chimp was getting to do instant gratification all the time. Let's just look at YouTube. Let's go and look at something else. Let's not do this. Let's just open up the fridge and see what's in it. Okay. That's not there for five minutes ago. Again, that's a quick five minute video, but it really sums up. Professor Stephen Peters work on this book actually. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Skip, where do we go next with this one? Where were you left thinking? We've done, we did, who moved my sheets, which is a light touch. That's one for everybody. And I think, as you say, a lot of people seem to pick up on that one. We've done them deep. This is deep. We've done deep with chimp. Although you can do the chimp effectively at a surface level. So if you're only prepared to invest a bit of time, still do it. Just take care of the books. Yep. And actually, I'd almost read the first third of the book. It's realizing your chimp is reacting. That in itself really helps me. It really does help me. So deep. I tell you, there's so many great books that we both read out there. Simon's the next starting with why. That jumps to my mind. Okay. That's a great book there. And have you got another? There's a couple. I like, I guess, a deep one though, Daniel Kahneman thinking fast and slow. That's really interesting. So that's all about the red blue pill, the matrix, how do you intentionally slow thinking down? That's a really good one. The other one that I think a lot of people in our industry have seen or read at some time is Seven Abits. Yeah. So, Steve Covid. Yeah. See, it's great. Seven Abits. I put in the same code as this. It was a heavy read for me. Yeah. And heavy read. I'll go to tell you. I've not read the other book. Okay. Talk to me again about that one. So I can get it fresh. Okay. So you've got Daniel Kahneman who again, brain the size of the planet. He's written a book called Thinking Fast and Slow, which was written a number of years ago. I guess it kind of, you know, as the whole digital world was kicking in, people realized that you've got different ways of thinking and can you intentionally slow down your thinking. And there's a really interesting anecdote in it, which is kind of, you know, in the matrix where you've got the reptile blue, blue, blue, you know, what it does to the brain. So that's a good one. I quite like that one. There's another one in his series, which is called Noise, which I think sums up our industry in many ways, which is all that blah, blah, blah, white noise. Yeah. And he blocked that out and get focused on the thing. But I think that's probably one for a later date. I think thinking fast and slow is something that could be really useful to individuals and managers of individuals in terms of how do you get things done well? How do you get over the hump of the procrastination? And also how do you get people just to stop and just check themselves in, which I think he's a big part of what we're trying to do in our business. Listen, I'm all for reading something new there. I love going back to who moved my cheese. I love going back to the chimp thing. It's been a month, I think, since we've done this. And going back over the chimp stuff has really, really helped. I want to get my teeth into something new now, fast and slow. So let's do that. I'll send you a copy. Let's do that. That sounds not true. That's audio book. It's how we do it. So people listen to this. This is what we want you to do. I want you to go and Google now. Okay, Tim Urban in the mind of a procrastinator. That's a great little one. And again, Jason, for all our managers in Marabani, it's a great one out there for the guys there. But think about the chimp. Even if you read the first a third, actually, I want to say the first three chapters. First three chapters really helps, but there's a lot of great, great stuff in that end. And also, let us know. Do you have a book that you've read out there that you think, hold on, these guys need to be talking about this? Remember, this is about in our industry, in the motor trade, what great books are you read? And listen, there's so many out there. There's so many out there. So we're going to do one at a time. So again, Jason, I didn't get too much red wine through there. I've got two more than you, Skip. Look, you have that. You have that. And thank you so much again. I'm absolutely loving this because I'm learning so much there. And I really hope that everyone listen to this as well. So we'll do this again next time. Here's Billy. See you soon. See you then. That just leaves me to say that all details of this episode and other episodes on the selling in the motor trade can be found on our website simcotraining.co.uk. Go there to get a copy of our book, Words That Sell Cars. Go there to sign up to a free trial of our sales fitness online sales training program. Easiest way to get hold of me is Simon Bowkett, through LinkedIn. Thank you.