We continue with the second instalment of our interview with Sean Kelly – Managing Director, Vines Group.
For Sean staff satisfaction is key, and with an attrition rate of less than 20% this year across the group (including technicians), he knows what he’s talking about. Luckily for us, he is happy to share the group ethos that keeps their team and consequently customers happy.
Agency is coming to the Vines Group next year with Mini in quarter 4 and then BMW will be a year plus after that, so we get Sean’s take on agency and the future it holds.
So many positives to take from our discussion, from succession planning, to management style and attitude.
Here are the highlights:
{06:10} Attrition Rates
{09:12} Staff Benefits
{14:38} Management Style
{20:27} Succession Planning
{26:32} Agency
{37:30} Known for
About Symco Training:
Symco Training was founded in 2000 by Simon Bowkett and it was his belief that the business had to offer its clients something different. That difference was clear to Simon from his days in the dealership when he experienced many sales trainers who had all the answers, but were unable, unwilling or both to actually show the delegate how they could be implemented. It remains the ethos of the business today. You see, Symco only employ trainers that are committed to delivering not only in spiring and insightful training, but are equally as happy to demonstrate these skills and techniques with real customers in your own showroom. We believe in order for sales training to be effective and in Simon’s words ‘real world’, it needs to be tried and tested in the only place it matters the showroom floor. There is no room for theory when your goals are for your team to sell more cars, hours or parts and retain more profit. In dealerships around the world the focus applied by many of the sales executives is to try and sell a deal. Symco specialise in getting your teams to focus on selling themselves, the product and then supporting this with the deal.
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Welcome to the Selling and the Motor Trade Podcast, an association with Symco Training. This is the weekly podcast where we share best practice tips and ideas on how to sell more cars, improve your service department and generally put more profit into your dealership or dealer group. I'm your host, Simon Bowkett. As some of you probably already know me as Skippy, I will start by saying thank you for taking the time to listen to this podcast. Okay, so listen, working with Vines, interviewing you and I know your team and we've done lots of work with you over the years. I know that you really do have a customer centric approach. Now, that sounds like something in a manual where a customer centric dealership and we cuss... and this word, fuck off, what's customer centric meeting you? You really look after people and it's like a family run business. So what I want to ask you, last time we spoke, there was the rise of Kazu. Kazu was... if I remember, they hadn't floated to that point, but it was worth something like 100 million in six months and 12 months is worth a billion and two years they floated for 6.5 billion. I haven't looked at it recently, but are they worth like 30 million now? Yeah, really. Something like that. I want to ask you about the digital age. Has it stopped now? Are we going back to customer centric? What Vines view on this? Yeah, well, I think it's a real blended approach, Simon. So, you know what, if a customer wants to do everything online today, they can. Can't they? They can buy one, find one, fund one, part X one. It's not a problem. So the options are there equally a customer can just walk in the front door here and do all of that with a human being too. And all we're finding is that people are dipping in and out. It's a bit like a sort of a wave on the sea. So some customers want to do their research online and narrow down their vehicle and come in. Some others want to identify a particular car and then come in and others actually just want to reserve a vehicle online subject to test drive. But we're still seeing in the vast majority, I would say 90% plus of all the vehicles we sell, whether they're new or used or any make or model, involve some form of human interaction, whether it's in the showroom or on the, I'm doing that symbol for on the phone. Do you know that kids now do that? Because they're not new to that. So 90% plus have some form of human interaction in it. And for me, that's where this business and that's where we set our store out to be better than the other dealers. You know, we do a lot of companies say they put their people at the top of their agenda and it's usually bollocks, isn't it? Well, we work really hard to try and recruit, train and retain the best people in our business. And we do that through, of course, paying them the right money, but we have a wide variety of benefits that probably aren't available at other motor dealers for sure. But what we also do, we tell them what the brilliant basics are. Yeah. Yeah. Every, every job and role has the absolute minimum standards we'd expect from you to deliver a good customer experience. Sean, as you're shown, the brilliant other basics and it is a big manual. I'm sure I don't know how many pages that's got, but it's a lovely big manual and it's it's every part of it. Yeah. And so, and so all this does is, for example, just walks you through the job that you need to do, whether you're a sales execs, parts advisor, service advisor, whatever else it may be. Now, not to hamstring them, but just to say, if you do these basic bits well, the customer will get a good experience and then your personality can come out on top. And, you know, for me, I'm often criticized for not representing BMW's brand values effectively. But from my, and the reason being it's quite chewtolic and very silver and grey in German and all that sort of jazz, of course. And for me, I think as long as you deliver the absolute basics to a customer right first time, every time, you can be a bit more flamboyant. You can have a bit of a laugh and a joke and you know what, that's what makes the day go along for everyone who works here and the customers enjoy it too. You know, I love it when people are laughing and joking in the showroom, customers, staff and everybody together. Because we put a long bloody weekend to every one of our businesses. So you need to have fun while you're at work because actually you're spending the vast majority of your waking life in it. So, so for me, you know, you talked about customer centricity. It's not the kind of language I'd use. For us, it's happy staff, equal, happy customers. And that's our mantra, really. Yeah. Well, listen, that flows on to your employee retention. I don't know if you're comfortable sharing some of the things you do. I know that when we train your new people there, they were getting a welcome box from your HR director and was welcome to the business and there's a card in there and all their stuff they need on. Wow, that was really good. And we're talking like three years ago and it was right at the edge. And I suppose the proof in the pudding is how many of your senior managers are home grown that be? No, the vast majority and you know what, Simon, it's really interesting. So we've got we've got heads of business that were validters kind of working through the business. We've got sales manager. We've got a general sales manager at one of our sites who started as a part, apprentice. And for me, you know, I can give you some numbers if you like, but we're under 20% attrition across the whole business for all of this year. Now, if you look at some of the some of the some of the messages on the, you know, on the automotive press and stuff are, you know, service advisors, 40% attrition technicians, 25% sales execs, 30% were nowhere near that. And that's actually because we, you know, walk the talk. So we say we want to look after you create an environment where everyone's happy, healthy, well looked after. And then we try and deliver on that too. So yeah, I'm really proud of that because I think we're in it. We're an industry where we've had a kind of a historic belief of a kind of churn and burn kind of approach and we've tried to break that mold. So, you know, at least 50% of our senior management of work their way up through the ranks, it's probably more than that, but you put me on the spot. We're about 17% attrition for the full year this year. And in terms of recruitment now, we get at least two thirds of our new employees come through word of mouth and quite often from the team that are here and of those at least three quarters of them have never worked in a motor business before. And I love that. I love that. And so this is how we do it. Vines, there's no bad habits, not employing other people's. Yeah. I'm sorry. I was going to use the word crap there. There's going to be a better word for that. It's just baggage, isn't it? Yeah. It's just baggage from other businesses. And, you know, I was really proud to find out the other day that from our HR manager, the largest pool of people we employ now are aged between 20 and 30. And so for me, again, one of those old farts for me, I love kids and I love bringing them into the business and that energy and enthusiasm and dynamism. Now all right, they come with a different set of rules perhaps. You and I when we were 20 and 30 because they do want a different thing out of life. Yeah. But you can still, you can still meet that and make that work in the motor trade and, you know, don't let anybody else tell you otherwise. It's definitely a doable thing. Yeah. Well, you're walking to one of your businesses, Sean, and you can't measure it. You can't calculate it. And I'm not just saying this, but you're walking there and it feels right. And that is the energy of the staff there, the people that, and I just want to ask a little bit more if you could share with this because people listen, this in Australia, the states and Ireland, Sean's businesses, he runs BMW and many businesses around, sorry, and it's a very affluent part of the world. The cost of living is going to be quite expensive around there. How much are keeping people is pay? Are you having to pay over the odds? How much is it where it is just looking after people like that? Welcome, Pack. What's your feel on? Can you share some of the things you do to retain? Sure. Well, firstly, you've got to get the money right now. You might not necessarily need to be the highest payer, but it's got to be commensurate with the marketplace around you. So every year we do a pay and benefits review. So what we'll do pretty much for every position in the company, we'll go and do a bit of recruitment, ring round, we'll speak to other dealers and find out what the average journeys are for the varying roles and what's the split basic to commission. Because we've moved recently, Skip, much more down the higher basic, lower bonus routes for all of our teams, especially our managers. Because again, it's just that little bit of security. It's also about mortgage reward and so on. So if the money's not right, it doesn't matter how many bowls of fruit you've got in the kitchen. Do you know what I mean? It's got to be in the right ballpark. Then on the other side, what we do is we hold staff workshops, I guess, in terms of asking their feedback what we could do better as a business. We hold an annual, sorry, a twice annual survey where we do an anonymous response and they schoolers out 10 on loads of different questions, but one that they can summarize around engagement and how engaged you are with the business. And for the last 18 months, we've been around nine out of 10 for all employees. You know, the NPS school where you get promoters and detractors, we've got 11 detractors at the moment out of 270 employees. So that's not a bad shout either. And if they're listening, I know who they are. So we create an environment where everyone feels relaxed, have some fun. We give them the tools to do the job. We're very relaxed in our dress code. As you can see, we're not suited and booted. It's not a prerequisite that you have to be like a stuffed chicken on Christmas dinner that can be in our business. And then from a benefits perspective, every member of the team gets a paid Medi-cash support. That's worth up to £1,000 a year for every employee. So if they need to go and see a doctor or a dentist or get some physiotherapy, they can do that and it's free of charge. We give everybody, we give everybody in the team their birthday is a day off. We don't open on Sundays and haven't since COVID. So again, that's another win in terms of work, life balance. We don't open after sales on a Saturday. I don't know, there'll be heresy for the people that are listening to it now because it's like, how can you be missing all those hours? But again, haven't done that for three years now. But our retention in after sales is through the roof in terms of people. Got loads of stuff. For me, it's lots of little things that add up to a big thing. And the focus groups, that was the word I was struggling for before. The focus groups in the business are held at each site. There's about a dozen people in representing every department. And they say, actually, here's the next thing we'd like to look at and to focus on. And we've used that for the last three, four years, certainly since COVID. And the business has transformed both in terms of the retention of our teams, how they feel about working for us. And it's actually now become a bit of a draw for new employees coming into us as well. For every job we advertise, we get lots of knocks on the door from people keen to join. So it's a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, really. Some great decisions, not opening on Sunday. I know there's lots of people doing this, but you've just done it. The sales department said, no, we don't do Saturday morning. Again, great decisions. What impact is that having on profitability? Yeah, yeah. Do you know what? It's a fascinating one because I and the senior manager, we were really nervous about that. But I think we were kind of helped into it by coming out of COVID because we were actively fully closed, fully closed. I hope so. I hope so. For those of you that are listening to this, I have got a shirt on. So bottom half may be enough. So we were fully closed anyway. So we kind of opened up in stages. And then what we recognised is we were having as a business record years in terms of profitability. So we said, actually, we've got a really good, strong, profitable result. We've got good staff satisfaction because of the team that with us, we're not having a high turnover rate from people leaving our business and the associated headache and costs that goes with that. So why would you? It's almost the reverse kind of thinking rather than saying, what am I missing? It's almost what am I gaining by not doing that? So it's kind of flipping on its head a bit. So I mean, you know, as well as I do though, there'll be somebody who'll walk on one of my four courts at two o'clock on a Sunday afternoon and we're shut and hey, and he goes and buy something else. I get that. But that one deal, two deals, however many deals it is a week or a month does not pay for all of the other good stuff. And then they just correct. Correct. I was asking a little bit about your management style. I'm not long enough sure now, but not working directly with you. You're an accountant and you said, don't hold that against me. I'm not one of the normal accountants. And I want to ask about your day to day business. How often do you sit there looking at the numbers? OK, finding out what they are making goal setting on the accountability numbers. How much is walking around managing by walking around and smiling, seeing people touching and get to know what they are? I think I know the answer that, but I want to get the views for what you do because there's a contrast there in what your background is. No, I get that. And no man is an island. So I can't run the business on my own. So what I do is I'm up at Sparrow's bar o'clock. So I'm always up at 5am and whether I take the dog for a walk or do some other stuff. If I'm doing any numbers and a non-person rubbish, I get it done before I come to work. Yeah, so any of the forecast counts, all that sort of crap. Get it out the way. Get it out early. When I come into the business, it's really important for me to be visible to people, for people to be able to have a conversation, even if it's just a hey, how are you, how was the weekend, you're fucked up. I know loads of people's football teams, so I can take the mickey out of them if they don't do well or otherwise. When I always make a joke on our induction days, we run them, you know, whenever we get a dozen people together, we kind of hold an induction day. They get spend an hour with me, God help them, but nonetheless, it sets the tone for the business and them and what I'm about and my personality. And in those induction meetings, I always say my door is always open. It's only ever closed if I'm giving somebody a bollocking and then I'll open it up again. And that's exactly true. And even if I am in my office on a day, I've got an office off the corridor here and people walk past and invariably stick their head in, have a five minute chat this, that, neither. And I'm one of those people that I will stop whatever else it is I'm doing to talk to that person because for that person, it might be the only time in the next two months they get to talk to me. So it's dead important for them, even if it perceptionally, time wise, isn't that important to me? And so what I try and do and what I encourage absolutely all my management team to do is to be available, be visible and just be human. Simon, I mean, it sounds really wokie-jokey, doesn't it? I'm really serious about it. I'd won any member of my team if they had a problem, whether it's at home or at work or otherwise to be able to come to me and say, sure, do you know what, I've got a problem, can you help? Loads do, to be fair. But for me, that's what we can do as a family business that other businesses really struggle with. And so that's the advantage for me. So if it's not 70% walking about, you haven't walked about enough. I'm always 10,000 steps a day, if my phone's in my back pocket, no doubt about it. And for me, there's a real power in the team. Sometimes they get sick of my voice as you are now, because I can't stop myself. But when I was a baby, I was inoculating with a gramophone needle, so I can't stop talking. But that family business, I just love the idea that 1,000 pounds for medical expenses, everyone in the ploy has there. In the grand scheme of things, it's a minor thing. It really is. But that's a major thing for someone that can't get to an NHS dentist, they've got the two fake there, and it's just like, this is where that, they care about me. It really does. And I really do believe you look after people, they'll look after you. It's no rocket science. I just, I've not heard that before, Sean. I just, I love the idea of it. Can I ask you, what's one of the most rewarding things, then? Running vines for the last 20 years. Yeah, oh, it's got to be that bringing people through the business. So, you know, I was lucky enough, I mean, I had a difficult childhood, but I was lucky enough to get a good education, a good job working for a good company in BMW. And I by accident fell into the best job in the world. So, you know, I've been blessed with all of that good luck that's gone along with it. But what I still believe today is that the motor trade is a business where you could walk out the school gates at 16 with no formal qualifications, and you could walk in the door of a dealership or a motor trader and providing you work hard, put your nose down and do as you're told, learn from your bettors, all that kind of good stuff that rubs off. You can run these businesses in the future and we've seen it happen. So for me, when you meet the young, we had an apprentice recruitment the other day. I mean, it's like a knife to the heart when you say anybody born in the 2000s. I've got shoes older than that. That's right. Yeah, correct. And it smells like it today. But you know what, the food for the soul for me is seeing these people come through our business and some of them perform well and move on with us. Some perform well and go off and get jobs elsewhere and they can develop their career and move forward as well. So, yeah, for me, it's the smiling face on a raw recruit over the next 10, 15, 20 years when they reach their level of success that they're able to do with us. And we're only a small business, so we can't, we haven't got tons and tons of management opportunities. But our first port of call, if somebody decides to leave to go and do something else or gets promoted in the business, we say, right, where's our next in waiting? And we do a lot of succession planning and we have an aspiring leaders program where every year, 10 people from the cold face of the business that we identify as future stars, get bespoke training and developing and coaching from our team and a couple of external bodies along with BMW as well. Because they're the managers of tomorrow, you know, and for me, I want to leave a legacy at the point, then when I hang up my clogs and move on, that we've got a business that's run by the people that are employed within it and they've all kind of come through the ranks with them together. So yeah, that's the bit that I get really excited about. The finances and the results are great. That's one thing, but it's the people. If you don't like people, you shouldn't be in this business. It's as simple as that, you know. This might not be an easy question for you to answer. I want to talk to you about mindset and mindset's the most important thing on a daily job there. But I want to ask you, how do you keep it up? How do you keep your mindset right when you don't feel like it? But I think it might not be easy because I will sort of get a feeling it comes natural to you. But do you have any advice for someone who's, I don't know, keep the dog and the way to work and everything's gone bad? You must have days that you don't feel like it, sure. Yeah, of course, everybody does, don't they? We'd be a liar if we said otherwise, but it's going to sound really hacked and cliched. Now, anything I say now is going to sound ridiculous, but do you know what? I still, when I get behind the wheel of my car, I look at that roundle in the middle of the BMW logo and that gets me excited in the morning working for a brand that says highly thought of as BMW. If I'm going along the street, I think God, there's plenty of crappy jobs I could be doing than this. And it's almost like a reverse psychology thing. I mean, I'm naturally quite happy individual. I'm dementedly optimistic. I always think tomorrow will be better than today, whatever happens down that road. But I think really, it goes back to looking after yourself, physiology of you as a human being, you know, you need to get enough sleep, enough hydration. You know, if you look after your body, that's half the battle, I think that sends the right signals to your mind in the first place. And then secondarily, I guess it's about finding your passion. That doesn't mean it necessarily has to be your job. But if you work hard at your job, when you earn enough money to do the things that are, you are passionate about whether it's looking after the kids going on holiday, whether it's your hobby or your sport, whatever else it is, that's the thing that you can then use to motivate yourself to perhaps do the drudgy bit of the job that you don't like. But I'm really sanguine about it. I lost my brother on my dad when before I was a teenager, I'm a mom, not long after I was an adult. For me, life is all about enjoying yourself because you don't know how long you've got left. And I think that is the natural thing that is inside me really. And my goal is, you know, attitudes are infectious, good and bad. Yeah. So if I've got a good one and I can put that on, even if I don't feel it, if I wear the mask of the happy man in the business, everyone else will feel that in the day and it might not just get one or 2% more out of somebody who is just feeling okay. So I see that as my job really to spread that positivity. And even if things aren't going well in either the business or a department or an individual's life or role, it's about reframing it to say, okay, what's the very next action you could take? Don't worry about six months from now, don't worry about the 500 things you've got to do between now and the end of the month. That's the one next action you can take and just do that. And by moving and doing something, it just creates its own momentum. And often people are stymied because they see the weight of stuff that they have to achieve. And actually all they should be focused on is the very next thing. That one. Yeah. Yeah. There's a great guy called Zig Ziglar. We've, I know we've talked about him in the past. I'm pretty sure we have Dave Anderson as well. You love some of his stuff. But yeah. Just Zig Ziglar. I think it was him who said it might be Dave Anderson. So if you act enthusiastic, real enthusiasm will kick in. And it's true. I mean, sure. And at the moment, I have to on my shirt over a walk to get the right shape. So I'm getting on a treadmill and going for a run. Okay. I will make a thousand excuses not to do it. But if I push myself, when I get on that treadmill, okay, I'll go for a run if it's like a sunny, but we're coming into winter now. Yeah. But for the first minute, I want to die. The second minute, most times I do die. But around the third to fifth minute, something weird happens. I think I'm actually into this now. I'm actually quite there. And it's the same running a training course. People say, why are you so enthusiastic all the time? Honestly, I don't have to try harder. But when our days were things have gone to crap, we all have it. I just think it's okay. It's show time. Let's get into it. Yeah. And they're the days of my best days ever shown. And it just creating that energy. I think it runs off. And you get it back as well. What you give you get back, there's no doubt about it. And you quote Zig Ziglar there. There's another one from Dave Anderson. It's about, and again, this is why it's hard being an ex-accountant. It's easy to look at a scoreboard and see what the results are. But actually, you need to look at what's going on in the game, what's happening on the floor, what your people are doing. And don't focus on the results, focus on the inputs and create an environment where people want to do that work, want to do that extra mile, all of that stuff. And actually, the results will take care of themselves. So it's all about people. Always has been always well-be. It's just some people don't recognize that time in it. Listen, I want to bring up the A word. Agent's. Now, people listen to this one, but you did. The agency word. People listen to podcast. You know that we spoke to James Vortman. He was in Australia with Mercedes-Benz and the court case. And Mercedes has won that. I think agency is coming. It's a tide. I don't think we're going to sit there and say it's not going to come. I don't know where BMW's position is and when they're going to consider it and whatever. I'm keen to get your views for sitting. And I'll wind you both hats on if you can. The manufacturer's hat and vines' hat and just explore what impact it's going to have on things like the valuation, the business for the investor. What's going to happen with the push market? The bit that I don't get, I'm really not sure what's going to happen here. The manufacturer always will have an element of push because they're going to start building a car two years earlier and they don't realize that purple's not the color people want anymore. And they're going to have to push it in. Under agency, what happens? Do they devalue the brand or are they going to push it into the broker world? The daily rental, is that going to happen? Can I open up that conversation, the agency word? Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, I mean, to put it into a quick context, by this time next year, many will be in the world of agency. So that's coming down the pipe queue for next year. So they'll have their way off compared to some others then. Yeah, yeah. Still a bit away and BMW's a year plus after that as well. So they're a bit further down the track and not lauding the world of BMW as a manufacturer, but they've been quite open to our feedback around how to shape that model. And we've kind of had, I think, the best result out of what could be a kind of tricky transition. But so if I go back to your first part of your question as an OEM, put me OEM hat off. What does agency do? Takes cost out of distribution. Tick. Thank you very much. That's exactly what I need to do because producing electric vehicles is about 30% more expensive than producing an internal combustion car. So if I don't find a way of making more money, that return for building cars is going to dissipate and I can't allow that as an OEM. As a byproduct, I think it from an OEM's point of view provides a transparent customer offering in that pricing is fixed. And therefore, the bit that perhaps customers don't like so much, that kind of haggle piece has gone away. And ultimately, because I control the price and the finance, if a customer wanted to do everything online, I could do that and I could sell that vehicle directly. Okay, so that's the OEM tick sheet. An agency does all of those to a greater or lesser extent. Flipping to putting my dealer hat back on, I've got mixed views. It's a bit like a cure at SEG. It's good in parts. Yeah. So I think when you look back over the long term history of new car profitability in the UK, actually having a fixed commission sounds quite interesting because we've had the peaks and troughs of new car profit over the years, certainly before COVID, not so much since. And that's why it's a bit painful now to readjust to that kind of pricing and earning difference. But conceptually for new cars, I kind of understand it. A customer gets a known proposition. They can have instant access to a stock of centrally held vehicles. And if you want a red, blue or green one, we can get that for you when it's quite quick. The experience should be better. From an income perspective, it's definitely going to be more of a challenge to make the same return. So where we are at the moment is it's likely to create bigger multi-site businesses. So I think there's a real win if you've got an economy of scale with a particular brand through agency because you can then look to take costs out of the transaction chain. If you've got 20 sites all selling the same models, you might be able to have one smaller central hub around inquiries and control because that can deal a bit effectively is negated. So I think economy of scale will work for retailers from that perspective. But equally, it's just a different model. And the way I'll come back to enterprise value in a minute at the end, but it's just a different model and a different way of working. It's the first one in a long time. That's why it feels a bit weird and a bit scary. But what will happen is you'll start to operate in that model and we'll find a way because we always have. So we'll find a way to make it work. It's just it might not look how we think it's going to look right now. So the devil's in the detail until we get into the ribs of it, it's hard to know how many people you're going to need to sell these cars. If you were a manufacturer, you think you need a team of 10 customer service agents on a fixed 18, 20,000 pound salary and no salespeople anymore. Again, I can't buy that because people and people and all of that kind of stuff. So I don't necessarily agree with all of that. I think fundamentally, there'll still be a return that you can make out of selling new cars. It's consistent, whereas historically, it was very volatile depending on the market and the manufacturer. And so ultimately, from an enterprise value point of view, once you have a known set of returns, let's say you run the thing for two, three years and your returns are X, that then creates the value in your business of Y. So let's say we're a three center BMW and Mini dealer. Let's say in the world of agency, it means we only really need to. So we need to do the volume that we need because it's the change of approach and we've restructured and changed our business. That kind of thing, we've got a spare facility over here where we do something else with it and it might not be motor. Do you know what I mean? It might be little buy it and use it as a supermarket. It might be that we put housing on the site that's it. It's just change, Simon. That's all it is. And I think people who constantly heart back to how it was are going to miss the opportunity that's afforded to them by this coming. And I think what we need to do really is that as a network where it's coming into your business, it's to say, okay, how's it going to work? How am I going to make the best of it? How am I going to get more cars, more customers to come to me? It's service, proposition, looking after customers, all that sort of stuff. So over the medium term, I don't think it's going to have an impact on business valuations for stock. I think there's a likelihood that if we were building dealerships tomorrow than today, we'd be building them smaller, smaller showrooms and bigger workshops, that kind of thing. So I think the move's going to flick along. But within that EV piece as well, you've got, sorry, within that agency piece as well, you've got EV coming to roost at the same time. So more after sales throughputs, but less frequent, less work to be done on them, breaks, lubes, all that sort of stuff. So the whole thing's in flux and that just gets people scared, doesn't it? That's all. It's just change can be good or bad, but it depends on your approach to it as to how it's going to be. Yeah, we listen to lots of these podcasts and books and these people like, it's not the wind that blows, it's the set of your sales. A guy called Jim Rohn said, that's the game. How do we make most of it? Because again, I believe it's a tie that's coming like EV again, it's coming. Yeah. So what are we going to do to maximise the advantage, the opportunity, I should say? Yeah. The biggest waste of time, Simon, is worrying about things you can't control. Yeah. Or saying, or saying they've gone down the wrong route, they'll stop it. It's like people still argue about the Brexit vote, don't they? It's not changing, it's not going to go back. Just get on with today, make the best of what you've got. And you know, life's short, make every day a good one, and you can't do that by thinking as to what's gone or what we should have done differently. It's all about what we can do tomorrow. Isn't it, human nature? Years ago, I was in a taxi in Dublin where they just bought in the smoking ban in public places. And I'm not a smoker, never have. But the cab driver is smoking away. I said, it's the smoking ban, just come in. And he's like, no, let me tell you, it'll never last. It's a load. This is Ireland. We all love our smoking. So don't, it's a load of garbage. It won't work. I mean, just human nature, isn't it? Yeah. And change is inevitable. It changes inevitable whether it's in your personal life or your business life or in the economy or the political landscape. We're going to have a general election next year, aren't we? It's looking likely to go one way, but you never know. And depending on which way it goes dictates how the world feels about UK, PLC. And that could be good or bad for consumer confidence, but I can't affect it. So I can't worry about it. Well, as in wrapping up this week, Fred McGuire has passed away. And the people listening to this in other countries, Fred McGuire is a great leader in the UK motor tray, motor industry. I met him at the National Lounge, International Lounge, sorry, an ADA years ago, many years ago, when he was still managing director of Lookers, I think, at the time there. And we're talking about just the different speakers we've seen. And there were poor comings at the time and David Martin at the time. And he told me a story that I'll always remember him for. And I hadn't heard it at the time, but it was the old bull and the young bull. And he turned around and said, Oh, this speaker, I went to speak to, he's the young bull. I liked David Martin. He's the old bull. I said, sorry, the old bull. And he tells me the story. He said, there's this young bull and this old bull. They give me out into the field. And there's a whole lot of cows down in the bottom. OK, and the young bull says, Hey, look at this. I'm going to run down there and shag as many of those cows as I can. OK. And the old bull just looks at me and says, No, I'm going to walk down there and I'm going to shag him all. And that's what I remember Fred McGuire for. OK, and I love his philosophy. And the old bull and bless him. That's what I will always remember him for. So Sean, I don't want you to pass away too soon. But based on that, is there anything you would like to be known for? OK, if you move away from vines, what would you want the people of vines to say? I remember Sean Kelly because of this. Yeah, miserable fat bastard. I'd like them to think he was a nice bloke who did what he said he would do. I mean, I think you can't ask for much more than that, really. I'm the sort of person who will be really up front and say exactly what I'm after. So I'll set my expectations and I'll hold people accountable to it. But I won't do it in a way that gets them upset or in front of other people. It's all about that kind of one to one relationship bit. But I'd like people to look back and say, you know, what was either new him or worked alongside him. We always had a bit of fun. We always got the job done. And at the end of the day, I'm better in my job and life than I was when I started. And for me, Simon, I wear the 270 employees around my neck. A bit like an Albatross, because my job, my job is to pay their bills, pay their mortgage, make sure the business runs that they're happy, healthy and looked after. So they can have a fruitful life. This does sound really wokie-kokie now, isn't it? But for me, I know there are people in the business who will look back and say, yeah, SK helped me do that. And I think that's probably on my headstone, isn't it? You know, I got where I am today. SK helped me. Didn't kind of do it for them, but helped them along the road. So, yeah, that'll probably be my fitting epitaph, I guess, yeah. For sure. Listen, I really enjoy our conversations. Thank you again for coming back onto the podcast. Listen, how do people get hold of you? If they say, you know what, vines is where I really want to work for. I love the idea of some of that medical not working on Sundays, that technicians, oh, how does that? Can you even keep technicians? Because tears, yeah, do you know? We went through a period of adjustment, if you like, and that was really because the technician wage inflation was going so quickly that we probably weren't keeping pace with that. And we've now kind of neutralised that to a greater or lesser extent. And with the benefits of not working Saturdays, I think that really is the winner of the icing on the cake. So, yeah, even with technicians in the pot, we still sub that 20% attrition on the year. So, yeah, it's a really, really good place to be. I mean, in terms of getting hold to me, well, I'm on LinkedIn, of course, so it's Sean Kelly, Vines Group, pop, pop up there, no doubt, give me a connection. I always say yes to connections. Again, some other people have a different view, but I'll say yes to anybody who wants to connect up, just because you never know who knows who and, you know, I've sold cars through LinkedIn and from people that I just had no contact with previously and so on. So, yeah, Sean Kelly, Vines Group on LinkedIn, or Google the business, my email address is Sean.KellyappVinesGroup.net. If anybody wants to drop me a line. But yeah, we're on to internet like everyone else, so all the contact details are on their skip. Yeah. Listen, again, I love it. You're enthusiasm, really, it's infectious. Thanks again. Hey, brilliant. Thanks, Skip. That just leads me to say that all details of this episode and other episodes on the selling in the motor trade can be found on our website simcotraining.co.uk. Go there to get a copy of our book, Words That Sell Cars. Go there to sign up to a free trial of our sales fitness online sales training program. Easiest way to get hold of me is Simon Bowkett, food linked in. Thank you.
